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Which Chinese spindle for workbee?

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by halfshavedyaks, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    I'm probably about to buy a Workbee 1000x750.

    I will be doing mostly 2 sided 3D carving in wood.

    I want a quiet spindle since my workshop is in the house and I anticipate some jobs taking several hours.

    My research so far indicates that a chinese 800w aircooled spindle with VFD would be a suitable thing to use.

    I notice that 1.5kw spindles are barely any more expensive, but I'm concerned about the weight.

    Most seem to use ER11 collets and a few use ER16 collets. Is ER11 a good choice?

    Is anyone else here using such a spindle? if so where from and how is it?

    Is there a particular manufacturer, specification or seller I should look for to purchase such a spindle?

    thanks!

    PS I'm in the UK.
     
  2. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Most of the noise will be from the end mill in the material.

    I used to use a Kress 1050. When i built my Sphinx which is similar i considered going for a chinese spindle but ended up with the Makita RT0700 which cost me £90.

    On its lowest setting (10k rpm) you can hardly hear it and you can hold a conversation over it.

    The noise of the steppers, leadscrews and the dust extraction (Henry Hoover sucking through a dust cyclonic seperator, so really quiet) are still louder than the Makita.

    End mill wise I am using a cheap chinese 3mm single flute end mill, or 6mm single flute end mill as they are quiet than the twin flute end mills i have tried and even with this the noise is not too bad.
     
  3. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    hmm well that's interesting thanks - that seems to somewhat contradict my research. Has anyone compared the makita and a chinese spindle? Also how much louder does it get at higher speeds? Wouldn't you normally use higher speeds for wood? especially with a small cutter?
     
  4. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    10K is more than enough at 3000mm / minute on MTF / Ply.

    Dont get me wrong the VFD spindle will be a lot quieter than the Makita, but the rest of your equipment will be louder as indicated above.

    For me it was cost and value - the cost of the Makita is half that of the VFD and simpler to set up
     
  5. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    ok, well that's worth considering. Where did you get your makita? I haven't found one quite that cheap yet. and how do you find the collets? did it come with collets for 1/4" and 1/8" bits or did you need extra parts?

    I'm basing my idea of the noise of the rest of the machine on my 3D printer which admittedly uses smaller steppers and mostly belts rather than screws so it may not be so comparable. Do you find your Henry on low (600w) setting is sufficient for dust extraction?

    It also occurs to me that machine controlled speed could be useful and not possible with the makita, but I may be getting rather ahead of myself.
     
  6. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    I just found the cheapest place on the net for the makita and there was a company having a sale on dropping the price to £89.99 with free shipping.

    The henry is a new one so single speed (580W) and is more than powerful enough to clear the dust from the machine going through MDF at a 6mm deep cut on a 6mmm tool at 3000mm / minute.

    The Makita comes with 1/4" and 1/2" Collets so i use a reducer for the 1/8" shank mills and it works fine.
     
  7. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    would you run the cutter faster or slower for hardwood compared to ply or MDF?

    I'm still undecided, now considering the makita but also hoping someone with experience of a chinese spindle will have something to add one way or the other.
     
  8. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Not played with Hardwood yet so cant offer any insight into that

    Where in UK are you as there may be a member near that could offer a demo of either a Makita or Chinese vfd spindle to help your decision.
     
  9. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    I'm in the north east - Durham is the nearest city.

    I'd probably go for a quiet chinese spindle just to make sure that isn't an issue for noise - if I could find a known reliable seller - so far they all look generic and totally untrustworthy.

    also none of the sellers I've found list the weight of the spindle - which is pretty important to know.

    I see there are 48V DC spindles too, but I haven't seen any above 500w.
     
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  10. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    some more snippets of info:

    I have a trend 850w handheld router - i just measured the noise level from it at minimum speed (which I think is 11500rpm) using the RTA on my phone. It was 75dBA at 1 m and 78dBA at 50cm. It's also quite an annoying noise and louder than i would really want. The noise level increases very rapidly with higher speed.

    I'm assuming that the makita is at least a little quieter than that.

    I also found this table of spindle specs for chinese spindles, though it's of minimal real help since it wasn't attached to any actually available for sale.

    What I take from this is that they are quite heavy, and that the physical size has much more relevance to the weight than the power does.

    spindles.jpg
     
  11. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Will try and get a video of the makita at idle and while cutting tomorrow

    I need to cut a base panel for an arcade machine anyway for a job I have on.

    Will do it without dust extraction to give you a better idea.
     
  12. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    some chinese spindle links: these look like the best I've found so far, HuanYang branded VFD and allegedly in Germany which should mean no VAT on arrival.

    0.8KW AIR-COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR ER11 MATCHING 1.5KW INVERTER DRIVE VFD FOR CNC 607885257569 | eBay

    TOP QUALITY 0.8KW ER11 AIR-COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR +1.5KW INVERTER DRIVE VFD 607885578619 | eBay

    1.5kw of similar size, so probably not much heavier.

    FOUR BEARING 1.5KW ER11 AIR COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR & 1.5KW INVERTER DRIVER CE 607885578572 | eBay

    there are some on aliexpress too, but no cheaper. though some throw in a mount/clamp.

    anyone have any thoughts about these?
     
  13. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    thanks, that's very helpful - though do you think you can tell much about sound level from a video? A quick db reading on a meter might be more useful if you have access to one or a phone app that does that.
     
  14. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Yeah I’ll download an app and do a test.
     
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  15. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    thanks! that would be great!

    FWIW levels are usually measured at 1m from the source, just to keep everything standardised.

    Maybe some others can add measurements of their spindles/routers and also whole machines cutting, it would a great resource for the forum if there were a table of sound level readings from different machines. I'll certainly do mine when I get it. (though of course phone apps are not super accurate as phones vary, but it would be a start).
     
  16. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Jut back in from workshop

    61.3db at idle at a measured meter away

    74db cutting mdf. Single flute 3mm end mill at 4.5mm pass at 2500mm minute


    Couple of videos as well

    The phone makes the audio sound a lot louder than it is in real life but may be a useful comparison.

    No dust extraction fitted or running to help you judge.
     

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  17. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    thanks! that's very useful information.

    that idle level is very good for a router. I assume it is quieter when cutting a shallower cut like finishing a carving - rather than cutting a slot?

    A little OT but it looks like you have bigger stepper motors than the standard? what control board and stepper drivers are you using?
     
  18. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    I’m using the openbuilds 3a 345oz steppers.

    Control wise I’m using an Arduino with DQ542ma drivers and a 24v psu (soon to be upgraded to a 36v)
     

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  19. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    The end mill is due for changing as it’s earned its keep (around 30 sheets of mdf)

    Been meaning to change it for a couple of weeks.

    A new one makes quite a difference to noise reduction.
     
  20. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    Makes sense that a sharper mill will be quieter. I wonder about damping the mounting and router too to avoid transmitting vibrations through the machine like a sound board.

    What prompted the larger motor setup? Is there are particular sort of job for which the 175oz motors would be inadequate?

    I've been wondering about what sort of control board to use too, but I've made even less progress on deciding that. What firmware do you use on the arduino? Is it just a regular uno? (I already have one of those)

    I see a lot of posts from people with big spindles and small stepper motors, but I would instinctively go the other way to keep the machine well controlled, because I anticipate most of the machine time being finishing passes over 3D carved objects - minimal material removal , but speed and control improvements would be well worthwhile.
     
  21. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    No real reason for the larger motors, just thought "Why Not" :) Due to an oversight on a panel design i ended up cutting the 18mm in a single pass at 2500mm / min with a 6mm single flute upcut! Not sure if the smaller motors would have stalled at that mistake!

    On the Uno, its just a regular Uno r3 clone (Elgato), I just flashed GRBL 1.1 and followed KYO's superb guide on connecting to the Uno to the DQ542MA Drivers.

    Its noticeably smoother than the Xpro i had before it, and has more 'headroom' for larger steppers and bigger power supplies.
     
  22. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    smoother is good. Do you mean smoother under variable load or just inherently smoother regardless?

    so was that successful mistake using the makita router?
     
  23. Chillimonster

    Chillimonster Veteran
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    Yeah. On the makita

    I was cutting a custom control panel for a customer and as I still had the 6mm end mill in the makita I selected that in aspire but forgot to set the number of passes and it defaulted to a single pass.

    Panicked at first but held off the emergency stop button when I realised it was coping well.
     
  24. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    I'm looking for that guide by KYO to connecting the DQ542MA but I'm not finding it. Can you point me in the right direction?
     
  25. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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  26. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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  27. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    Well, I've ordered a Makita along with my Workbee mechanical kit. I'll probably be using the uno and some wantai DQ542MA drivers.

    I'm still curious about the chinese spindles though. There are readily available 800w and 1.5kw spindles that are almost the same size (65x200mm) and weight (3kg) and price (ca £170 incl VFD) - so why would you choose the 800w? How much lower is the power consumption under the same load on an 800w I wonder?
     
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  28. halfshavedyaks

    halfshavedyaks Journeyman
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    when you upgrade to 36v are you expecting to need the same current capacity or just the same overall power? a 360w 36v PSU is only 10A and your drivers and motors could potentially exceed that, although I don't know if they really do in real world situations. Many kits come with 2 36v 360w PSUs - presumably because of this.
     

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