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New Spindle

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by sunil, Dec 27, 2016.

  1. sunil

    sunil New
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    Hi Guys

    So i have the ox cnc for a few months now from the guys ozznet kit with a makita style router so now i have decided to swap it for a 2.2kw water cooled one.

    So today i have mounted everything and i guess the z motor (nema23) doesnt like the weight of it..



    Is there something i can do stop it dropping? new stepper motor? or is the spindle just too heavy?

    Thanks in advance

    Sunil
     
  2. Darathy

    Darathy New
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    Hehe i have the 2.2kw motor aswell but i havent mounted it yet since i was suspecting the nema 23 wouldnt be able to hold it. I am hoping the high torque series can ,otherwise i have wasted 260€ for it :(
    Hope someone can answer us :)
     
  3. sunil

    sunil New
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    i hope so, i know i have the 175oz NEMA23 and bigger ones are avaliable so maybe thats the answer
     
  4. Ronald van Arkel

    Staff Member Builder Resident Builder

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    Or... you can use the 2.2kW as a 7kg+ / 15.4lbs+ paperweight (sell)... and get a 1.5kW one that is about 63-67% less in weight, air-cooled that is. The frequency controller and clamp most likely can be used for a 1.5kW spindle as well (clamp if you get a 85mm diameter spindle).

    But, we do have customers that have a 2.2kW spindle on their Ox, but they have changed the motors for the twice as heavy ones (345) on the Z and X axis, bolted the 2x 20x60mm V-Slot together, using double belts (google for it if you have never seen it), swapped the Z axis out for a C-Beam double wide gantry plate and thus a C-Beam placed on the X/Z body. Sure I would not dare to talk about the Ox that uses the NEMA17 on the Z-Axis... Next step would be a single start 8mm Acme so the spindle would not, or less, pull down the Acme nutblock; our customers seem to be okay with the upgrades mentioned before. What I forgot to mention is, they use a 1440mm wide gantry to cut just over 1220mm / 4' on the X axis.

    I do believe however, that leaving the woodrouter "spindles" behind is a good idea, but for aluminum 20 series extrusion builds I would recommend to not go over 1.5kW - they are 2.6kg / 5.7lbs about without the clamp(s) - and leave the aquarium pump where it is, go for air cooling and make your own dust shoe is you are creating too much dust (you always do with wood). Note that 1.5kW spindles come in ER11 and some in ER16 collets from factory, while the 2.2kW comes with an ER20.

    Just my 2c,

    -Ronald
     
    Kevon Ritter, GrayUK and sunil like this.
  5. Florian Bauereisen

    Florian Bauereisen Well-Known
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    Hi.
    Only reason to go 2,2 kw is, as mentioned the use of ER20 collets.
    I have used a 800w air-cooled spindle more than 3 years and have not used it to limits when using 6mm bits.
    Recently i swapped it for a 65mm 1,5 kw watercooled simply for two reasons;
    Want to create a new dust-shoe and hold-down design which is more easy with water-cooled spindles and second
    the bearings on the latter are further appart which is always a good thing.
    For stopping a big spindle from creeping down it is nescesary to use a spindle with little tpi/tpcm like a 16/5 or 16/4 cm one.
    apart from that it should have been obvious (common sense) that a 5kg spindle is far too heavy and thus will not only slide down by it self but aditionally induce twist into your gantry, rendering it useless unless heavylie reinforcing your cnc. You should have tried first by using a bag full of sand/lead... on top or your old router.
    have a look at my avatar, the 140kg diy-cnc is build for lightweight spindles but could take the 2,2 if one chooses. But than it might be tripple as strong at the very least than any ox.
    If you really want to keep it there is electric breaks for steppers but make sure your BOB/cam combo can deal with it.

    greets

    flo
     
    sunil likes this.
  6. sunil

    sunil New
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    Thanks for the inputs guys.. yes main reason i went for the 2.2 was the er20 collets as my router has only option of 1/4 collet!

    [​IMG]

    The dust boot is kinda covered

    15697391_10155023421639742_3988530453321811609_n.jpg

    So this is what ive got so far below for the new spindle:

    15134736_10154874500859742_2738157176923481319_n.jpg

    I quite like the water cooled feature (noise, less dust getting blown around)

    Looking at getting new steppers for the x and z etc, guess it makes more sense to get another spindle

    So i am guessing the vfd i have is fine, just need to get a new air cooled spindle and mount as all the ones ive seen, are 65mm o/d.

    Are all water cooled spindles heavy like the 2.2kw?
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ronald van Arkel

    Staff Member Builder Resident Builder

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    The watercooled router (65mm diameter) is about 3kg, that's 4kg less than the spindle you have now. Get a second clamp like you have and use a shim to mount the 170mm long body of the motor to the Z-axis. The body of the watercooled spindle is the same length as the aircooled one. The VFD can be used changing the parameter for function PD142 (Rated Motor Current).

    Personally I like the idea of a aircooled router that is about half a kilo less in weight and blows the area around the bit clean if used at 24k rpm, you already have a nice dustshoe and it would take care of the dust any way. I know it's just me, same with the motorbikes I had, all air (and oil) cooled except for a 50cc 2-stoke I had when I was 18... on the other hand, the microprocessor in my PC is watercooled :D.
     
    Mark Carew and sunil like this.
  8. sunil

    sunil New
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    Thanks for the info Ronald, seams i need to decide what to do..

    Im sill steering towards a water cooled one due to it not blowing the dust about, i tend to cut mdf so the dust flys allover the garage lol

    Do you think that the nema23 will be ok with the water cooled 1.5kw option

    Also ill get another mount like the one below

    [​IMG]
     
    #8 sunil, Dec 28, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  9. Ronald van Arkel

    Staff Member Builder Resident Builder

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    Don't waste your money on a mount like that, they are cheap to make and that is why they sell those, on the other side, it does give you 108mm of height adjustment possibility. Go with something that has 2 clamps, buy another like you have now and make a nice shim for it. If the base is made for the Bosch 1HP Colt router, you can use a PVC shim made out of a 1/8" wall tube; easy to cut and works/looks good.

    And put a heavier sucker on that dustshoe if dust still blows around :D.
     
  10. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
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    You might consider installing a lower pitch screw if the nema 23 doesn't hold it. You'll also get better vertical resolution as a side benefit.
     
  11. Ronald van Arkel

    Staff Member Builder Resident Builder

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    By the way, that kit comes with a NEMA17 motor isn't it? o_O

    EDIT: Scratch that, I see a NEMA23 at the back..
     
  12. sunil

    sunil New
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    yes all of the steppers are nema 23 (2303hs280aw-c)
     
  13. sunil

    sunil New
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    So finally got some specs for the spindles:

    1.5kw water cooled spindles:
    Spec: φ65x188 mm (Diameter:65mm x Length:188mm)
    Power: 1.5 KW
    Voltage: 220V~250V
    Frequency: 400 Hz
    Speed:8000-24000 R/min
    Water Cooling
    Runout off: less than 0.005mm
    Grease Lubrication
    Product Dimension:29 x 13 x 12 cm (L x W x H)
    Weight: 9 lb

    1.5kw air cooled:
    Spec: φ65x188 mm (Diameter:65mm x Length:188mm)
    Power: 1.5 KW
    Voltage: 220V~250V
    Frequency: 400 Hz
    Speed:8000-24000 R/min
    Air Cooling
    Runout off: less than 0.005mm
    Grease Lubrication
    Product Dimension(Approximated): 15"L x 7"W x 7"H
    Weight: 7 lb

    So i'm guessing ill be on the limit getting the watercooled one but should be safe getting the air cooled one?
     
  14. sunil

    sunil New
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    Just tested what sort of weight the motor could take..

    15781286_10155030123414742_945198530647642973_n.jpg

    SO it takes 3 bottles, a cut off of 3/4 mmf and the mount which cant been seen

    15781372_10155030122684742_2277213925220494565_n.jpg

    15726689_10155030123029742_2962241297687172116_n.jpg

    the 3 bottles and mdf weigh 9.6lb plus the mount so to be on the safe side, i think the air cooled wins.. thoughts please??
     
    Leesheph likes this.
  15. Darathy

    Darathy New
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    just weighted my 2.2kw spindle to 5kg +water which is probably only 200g ,I really dont wana exchange the motor becouse i already purcheased clamp,waterpump+tube, 2 sets of ER20 collets (metric and imperial). Would there actualy be that much deflection from the weight? I have ordered the hightorque nema 23s which can handle the weight i belive.

    I forgot to mention that i have the Plate maker not the OX which has a shorter X axis.
     
  16. Florian Bauereisen

    Florian Bauereisen Well-Known
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    Test it!
    extend your z all the way down, put a fishing scale to a long bit and pull some 20 kg.
    Deflection should be only a few 1/100 mm .... if more you are likely to break small bits while milling.
    I have just attached this vid to another thread...but once more wont do any harm:


    greets

    flo
     
  17. sunil

    sunil New
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    Yes same here, bought everything plus a full set of collets doh

    I'm just going to keep it box incase i build another stronger machine

    Think its going to be a 1.5kw air cooled one for mine
     
  18. John Hoagland

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    How about springs or counterbalance weight of some sort?

    Even a few rubber bands, just for testing of course. LOL
     
    Fred Quarles likes this.
  19. Ed Zacly

    Ed Zacly New
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    Greetings,

    I wanted to reach out and thank everybody on this post, I have to say that these old posts still have value,

    I built an OX metal CNC in 2018 and used a cheap spindle (400 w 52mm diameter 912g RPM 0-12000 ER-11 collet) because I figured that I was either going to bury into the bed or drag it across something... which thankfully I have managed to minimize, now it's time to improve on the spindle, I want to get int the 24,000 RPM range, admittedly I wanted to go big 2,2 kw , ER20 collets... The Ox Metal CNC is robust but still light duty and I have to say that I had a hard time figuring out what spindle to go with until I read what happened to Sunil when he installed his 2.2kw water cooled, as I got farther into the post I ran across this one comment that Ronald made:

    "I would recommend to not go over 1.5kW - they are 2.6kg / 5.7lbs "

    Ronald's comment made perfect sense…I had spent days reviewing's all kinds of information and did not know what to go with until I read this post, So Thank you Sunil and Ronald for posting and contributing..

    I found these nice German Spindale's available in the U.S from CNC Step and I am waiting for a Quote..(I have been waiting for days) .they match the spec and they have both air and water cooled.. Yes... I know they are going to be pricy..

    2.5 kg / LBS. 5.5 / Dia mm 65 @ 24,000 RPM...

    mechatron HF spindle — CNC STEP USA


    In any event... Just wanted to say thanks

    Regards,

    Ed Zac
     
  20. blindMoe

    blindMoe New
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    Did you ever receive a quote? Their 'Get the Prices' form is more like a newsletter signup than a contact form.


     
  21. Kevon Ritter

    Kevon Ritter Journeyman
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    @Ed Zacly
    As the other guys said, 2.2kW is absolutely ridiculous on an Ox. I have one myself on a much stronger build. I wouldn't dare put it on my 500x500mm Sphinx, and even that is stronger than an Ox will ever be. With that said, the Sphinx couldn't really handle much more than what a router could do. Most routers are in the 750-800W range. 800W spindles are pretty much limited to 1/4" end mills, but you'll actually be able to use all of your tool.
     
    Peter Van Der Walt likes this.
  22. Ed Zacly

    Ed Zacly New
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    Greetings, Blind Moe, Kevon

    That's the thing... as a novice your trying to navigate building one of these machines without a frame of reference, you can't really visualize the limits without firsthand knowledge... being conservative I would often question a build when I saw what I thought was an oversize spindle relative to the rest of the build.. For the sake of anyone new to the build process I would like to see them with a suggested upper limit rating posted as part of the build... although unless your building something on steroids the 1.5kW - 24,000 RPM, 2.6kg / 5.7lbs is about as far as you may want to go for most of these builds... for any build that uses V-Slot 20x60-80 mm with 1/4 thick aluminum Gantry ...

    I would like to see a best practices table ..or build reference for recurring issues (FAQ's) that seem to come up repeatedly...


    Blind Moe - I finally got the quote ... see attached, these are great spindles, the problem is that they come with a built up VFD, that is part of a box build.(VFD plus other components in a cabinet).. so being value added it push's the price right out there....



    Brings me to the next question... I now have to buy another spindle, preferably air cooled, any suggestions on which of the dozens of Chinese Supplier builds a better spindle... and if possible where to buy? .. I don't like buying from e-bay or Amazon... I prefer to buy from a domestic distributer that I can go to for advice...


    Thanks and Regards
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Kevon Ritter

    Kevon Ritter Journeyman
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    Holy crap, I can buy a brand new Tormach for those prices.

    As for machine spindle ceilings, even if the machines were stiff enough, the wheels can only handle so much. I'm not saying that these machines are bad. They definitely are amazing at what they are made for, hobby use. Anything beyond 800W won't give you anything more than tool diameter. I'm sure you can easily get away with a 500W brushed spindle on the larger 1000-1500mm builds and still use the machine to its max. People get away with the 1.5Kw spindles, but those machines need extra bracing just to carry it. Even still, they aren't really able to get the most from the spindle.

    Going too big =
    1. You won't be able to use the spindle to it's full potential, not even close.
    2. You need to brace your machine heavily, especially once you get into the 1000mm range.
    3. You need more wheels. There's a point where you spend more on wheels than you do linear rails which are far stronger. (Again, different purpose.)
    4. The average steppers used in these builds can't handle it. (I'm using 269oz.in steppers geared down 3:1 just to compensate for the lack of required torque. I might be running even slower than half feed of what the machine can do.)
     
  24. Ed Zacly

    Ed Zacly New
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    Succinctly put Kevon...hopefully somebody who is embarking on a build will run across these comments and find them to be of value as " best Practices for first Builds"

    These machines are great for what thy are but you have to understand their limits.. I am planning another build for a more robust machine and will turn the OX Metal CNC into a dedicated Laser platform. The OX Metal CNC was a great learning platform for establishing a basic frame of reference...
     
    Kevon Ritter likes this.
  25. Ken Couell

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  26. Corey Corbin

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    Im in the same boat looking for a new spindle right now I using a 500w on a sphinx setup with nema 23 on 8 mm lead screws. Have been thinking of getting a 600w or 800w spindle. Keep running into the brush less type spindles with drivers that look like stepper motor driver. Does anyone have experience with this setup?
     

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