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Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by kev20009, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. kev20009

    kev20009 New

    May 15, 2015
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    kev20009 published a new build:

    Read more about this build...
    Tom Allen likes this.
  2. Donald D. Parker


    Jan 26, 2014
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    I have a 1.5K and it only comes with the small collet, you can get the 2.2K with the 20 instead of 11 to give you a larger range of bits. If you use the 8mil phenolic plates it should be strong enough.
  3. dddman

    dddman Journeyman

    Mar 2, 2014
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    Why and how do you put a capital letter at the beginning of each word? Pretty strange :p
  4. kev20009

    kev20009 New

    May 15, 2015
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    Hi Donald

    Thanks for the advice, yes hope the 8mm phenolic will hold as I've added 50mm in hight to the plates, the er20 collet is the one I will go for, will be using nema 23 1.8 holding torque, the only thing I was worried about is the 8mm acme rod, with the weight, that's why I was looking for someone who as used this combination,

    Thanks again Donald. Kev
  5. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Oct 30, 2014
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    Haaa. It's like reading a huge headline. haha.

    No offense Kev
  6. kev20009

    kev20009 New

    May 15, 2015
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    hi guys, update with some mods, but not happy so be doing some more, the 16mm acme screw, is very loud and looks like it gonna stop, when cutting circle or corners, if I try to up the speed its just jams up,

    my thinking is to take the nema motors of the screw and have a small belt drive to them, so if you recommend the best size pullys to go for I would welcome your input,

    the first photo the spindle holder is a bearing block cut down and a slice cut through

    thanks guys kev
    #6 kev20009, Aug 12, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
  7. stargeezer

    stargeezer Journeyman

    Feb 20, 2015
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    Hi Kev, looking at your pics, I'm guessing you are using 5 start acme screws, which are normally a good thing, but if your motors are designed for developing their max torque at a higher RPM than you are running them, you need to adjust something. I know you know that. So your choices are to build a reduction drive (which you are asking about) or to change out your drive screws. Switching from 5 start 1/2" screws (which give you 2 turns per inch of travel) to regular acme thread screws (that are 10 turns per inch of travel) will move the power curve where you want it. If you elect to build reduction drives, I'd aim for a 3 to 1 reduction, BUT I'm saying that without knowing the specs of your motors exactly the size and pitch of your screws. You may only need to adjust some of your driver settings to give you more power. The last solution and the one I'd suggest if you can afford it, change to motors that are a correct match for the rest of your hardware.

    You need to be aware that there is no "best" fix for your problem. Any of those three methods will work just fine. The most labor intensive would be changing the screws and nuts. The motor change-out is easy, but costs the most and building three matching reduction drives may cost the least, but will only be slightly less difficult than changing the screws.

    If you want to post the motor specs and the screw info, I might be able to make a better suggestion. Also tell us what software you are running? I use Mach3, but there are folks here that run pretty much all of them.

    I'd sure check the settings first. Turn up acceleration, etc. Monitor the temps, if you are over heating the motors, the load is causing them to draw to much current. Too much current and you can cook a stepper motor or blow a driver module. Adjust a little at a time. You might try changing the micro stepping switches.
  8. kev20009

    kev20009 New

    May 15, 2015
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    when I got these did not now anything about cnc, so I could have got it all wrong, thanks for replying to me, kev

    these are the 4 micro steppers

    II. M335 Stepper Driver

    • Low cost, Non-creeping phenomenon under low speed. Low noise and non-resonant region.
    • Supply voltage up to 30V DC.
    • Output current up to 3.5A.
    • Suitable for 2-phase and 4-phase motors.
    • High speed optoelectronic isolation signal input.
    • 1, 2, 8, 16 adjustable micro step control for more accurate and smoother motor running.
    • Automatic idle-current reduction.
    • Protection

    these are my y axis screws

    TR16X8D-P2 Multi Start Trapezoidal Right Hand Spindle / Leadscrew

    hi these are the nema 23, could only get 8 wire, so wired in series,

    SY57STH76-3008B Nema 23 high torque hybrid stepper motor

    The SY57STH76-3008B stepping motor has a holding torque of 1.89Nm and has a rated current of 2A in series and 4A in Parallel.
    The motor is 1.8 degrees-per-step


    General specificationsElectrical specifications
    Step Angle1.8Rated Voltage (V)2.6
    Temperature Rise (℃)80 Max (Max 2 phase on)Rated Current in Sereis (A)2.0
    Ambient Temperature-20~+50Rated Current in Parallel (A)4.0
    Number of Phase4Resistance Per Phase in Series(+/- 10% Ω)2.2 (25℃)
    Insulation Resistance (MΩ)100 Min (500VDC)Resistance Per Phase in parallel(+/- 10% Ω)0.55 (25℃)
    Insulation ClassClass BInductance Per Phase in Series (+/- 20% mH)7.16
    Max.radial force (N)28 (20mm from the flange)Inductance Per Phase in parallel (+/- 20% mH)1.79
    Max.axial force (N)10Unipolar Holding Torque (N.cm)1.4
    Rotor inertia (gcm2)480Bipolar Holding Torque (N.cm)1.89
    Mass (Kg)
  9. kev20009

    kev20009 New

    May 15, 2015
    Likes Received:
    forgot to put it there running mach 3, thanks for your help kev
  10. stargeezer

    stargeezer Journeyman

    Feb 20, 2015
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    Hi Kev, I want to bring up some information about selecting stepper motors. You might find it useful, but since you already have your motors, you can perhaps use it to figure out where your problem may be. I suspect that you have very good motors for your application, but your setup may be wrong. You have 8 wire motors wired in series. This is being done to limit the amount of current that can be demanded from your drivers that have a maximum rating of 3.5 amps - you must not exceed this or you will blow the driver chip. Wiring them in parallel allows more current handling and therefore more torque, but your drivers won't allow for that. Do not change to parallel even though it would be better. It will burn out your drivers.

    I don't think you told us how many volts your power supply is supplying, but I'd suggest you put a voltmeter on it and measure as you are cutting. If you see a big drop in voltage, it would indicate that the PS can't supply enough amps for the system. As a rule of thumb, you should always supply the highest voltage that the least tolerant part is rated for. In your case, the driver is rated for a maximum of 30v and since you don't want to crowd that by too much, I'm guessing you are using 24v power supplies. I hope at least two.

    It may seem I'm trying to drown you with information, but lots of folks ask these questions and the best answers are scattered all over the web. Hang in there and we will help figure things out with you. Look over the stuff below and check those voltages and how many amps your PS is rated for and how many you have. Now that we know the other stuff we are getting closer.

    What follows is not my work and I can't take any credit for it other than finding and vetting it as best my humble abilities allow me to. Don't get lost in it, just glean what you can from it and I'll highlight what I feel are the most important parts for you. I also put a link to where I found this great work and if anybody else finds it helpful that they pass it along, and give credit where it's due.



    A Tutorial on motor torque calculations A question oft asked on MYCNCUK is "how big a motor do I need?". There is no simple answer to this, and the options are usually:

    a) follow someone elses build and copy theirs;
    b) take a guess and try again if you are wrong; or
    c) work it out, which is the subject of this tutorial.

    When choosing a motor you need to know:
    a) what power and torque output is required at a given speed
    b) what electrical characteristics are appropriate to acheive that

    What I have tried to do here is the engineering approach, by showing the calculations needed to get some idea of power, which then dictates motor size. I am concerning myself with a stepper motor directly driving a leadscrew to move the gantry, table, etc. Similar calculations can, however, be done for belt drive or geared up/down with timing pulleys.

    DISCLAIMER: This tutorial is to give you an insight into how to approach the selection of a motor. I take no responsibility for any consequences of following this tutorial and you alone are responsible for your choice and purchase of motors etc.

    So lets start with assessing what torque might be needed. The basic properties we need to be concerned with start with the moving element, be it table, gantry, milling head or whatever, and that is its mass. We need to know this, either by actually weighing it, or by estimation based on the volume of material and the density of the material or by adding up the weights of the component parts.

    A gantry for a router would be the weight of the slides (from manufacturer data) plus the weight of the aluminium parts (calculated using 2750 as the density) and the weight of the steppers, router, etc. Typically on a small router this would be in the order of 20kg, which we will use as our worked example - yours will be different. If you work out the motor needed for the heaviest element, then this is the worst case and the same motor will work for everything else (although you may chose to do the calculations for each axis in turn to see if there are saving to be made).

    So, we know what our moving part's mass is. The motor has to make this component move, first by accelerating it and then maintaining that velocity. To do so it must first overcome the initial friction (stiction) and then maintain the drive against the friction of the moving parts and against any cutting forces. Minimising that friction is therefore crucial. For linear or rolling bearings the friction can be calculated and the stiction is generally very small. For dovetails (as on a mill) it is not easy to calculate and is best measured with a spring balance, firstly to determine what pull is required to get the table moving and then to maintain that movement. This might be as much as 15kgf initially, dropping to 5kgf.

    The second aspect to accelerating the moving item is to overcome its inertia (the tendency of something to remain at rest) - this is true even if friction were zero.

    The motor turns the leadscrew to convert rotational motion into linear motion. There is friction here too, expressed as the efficiency of the leadscrew. This is typically 80% for ballscrews and as low as 30% for trapezoidal screws (bronze or delrin nuts on steel) and inertia, as the screw itself has inertia which is dependent on its mass and its length.

    Now we have all the elements we need.

    So, considering the frictional component of the torque, this is given by:

    Torque = F * p/(2pi * e)

    where F is the force to be overcome in Newtons, p is the screw pitch in metres and e is efficiency.

    For this example I shall assume a TR12x3 trapzoidal screw 12mm dia, 3mm pitch.

    The force to be overcome is, as said above, either the stiction or the kinetic friction plus the cutting forces. For the purposes of simplicity
    assume the cutting forces range from 5N for wood to 20N for alloy using the sort of spindles/cutters found in hobby sized machines up to 75N for steel on a mill.

    The frictional forces are calculated from the mass of the load and the friction coefficient:

    F = M * g * Fc

    where g is gravity, which can be taken as 10

    Typical static friction coefficients for common sliding mechanisms are:
    0.003 for a ball slide,
    0.01 for low-end ball races on aluminum channel,
    0.05 for teflon on steel,
    0.16 for bronze on steel
    1.10 for cast iron on cast iron.

    For most of these the kinetic frictional coefficient can be taken as the
    same, although it is around 0.2 for greased cast iron to cast iron.

    Assuming a low cost router using ball races and our 20kg load the frictional force (from equation 2) is 20 * 10 * .01 = 2N. Add to this the cutting force for wood at 5N and the force to be overcome is 7N, therefore the torque (from equation 1) is:

    T = 7 * .003/(2pi * .3) = 0.01Nm

    This doesn't sound a lot when motors are rated at 1 - 3Nm, but we haven't finished yet.

    The second calculation is the inertia of the moving item, expressed in terms of the inertia seen by the motor. The symbol we use for this is J(load) and it is calculated thus:

    J(load) = mass(load) * pitch^2/(2 * pi)^2
    where mass in Kg, pitch in metres gives inertia in kg m^2
    [note: ^2 means raise to the 2nd power, e.g. square it]

    In our example we will use a trapezoidal TR12x3 single start screw to move this 20Kg gantry, so from equation 3, J(load) = 20 * 0.003^2/40 = 4.5 x 10E-06 kgm^2 (the 40 is a good approximation to 2pi squared). To this we add the inertia of the screw, which is given by:

    J(screw) = 1/2 Mass * radius^2

    where the mass is given by:

    mass(screw) = pi * radius^2* length * density

    In our worked example a 12mm screw 800mm long has a mass of 3.1416 * .006^2 * .8 * 7800 = 0.71kg and therefore an inertia of J(screw) = 1/2 * 0.71 * .006^2 = 1.28 x 10E-05, so the screw has a higher inertia than the load!

    The total inertia to be overcome is the sum of J(load) and J(screw) = 1.72x10E-05 kgm^2. (Note the spreadsheet also adds in the rotor inertia of the motor)

    Next we have to decide how fast we want the gantry to move under load. Typically for a wood router anything from 500 to 1000mm/min would be suitable, for cutting aluminium you might want to look at 1800mm/min or better when using small cutting tools. The maximum traverse speed is given by:

    Smax = max motor rpm * screw pitch.

    In many cases the speed will be determined by the available drivers and the motor. Few motors will give much torque above about 1000steps/sec on low voltages (24v being the typical supply used), so the maxium speed we could reasonably expect under load for a 200step motor is going to be 1000/200 * 60 * .003 = 0.9m/min or 900mm/min. At this speed the angular velocity of the screw will be:

    w = 2 * pi * screw revs/sec
    In our example this becomes 6.28 * 1000/200 = 31.4 rads/sec.

    Note that the spreadsheet also shows whether the screw is likely to whip at the chosen speed depending on the type of fixing. For most basic systems fixed/free or supported/supported would be a typical configration, but this may need to be adjusted (or a bigger diameter screw chosen) for larger/faster designs.

    Now we need to decide what acceleration we want. There is a correllation between the speed of movement and the ideal acceleration to avoid loosing steps but allow rapid direction changes for accuracy of cut. Obviously as the speed increases the acceleration needed to maintain cut accuracy is higher, however for rapids a lower acceleration can be tolerated. A typical router at around a 1000mm/min would need an acceleration on the order of 2300rads/sec^2. The torque required to achieve this acceleration against the inertial loads is

    T = J * A
    Which gives 1.72x10E-05 * 2300 = 0.04Nm. (the spreadsheet assumes rapids need ~1/3 the acceleration of that used for cutting).

    Adding the two components of torque together we have a total torque requirement of 0.052Nm at the motor speed of 1000steps/sec (i.e. 5rps, 300rpm). The spreadsheet also adds in the detent torque (the torque needed to overcome the magnetic attraction between stator and rotor - this is what gives rise to the 'cogging' feel of a stepper motor when turned by hand.)

    You can see that the torque required is very different to the 'torque rating' of the motor. It is important to note that the holding torque of a stepper motor is to some extent of little relevance. This is the physical torque required to overcome the electromagnetic forces holding the rotor stationary and is the torque the motor tends towards as speed drops to zero. In practice this torque is rarely available or used. While the size of a stepper motor generally dictates the low speed torque, the ability of the drive electronics to force current through the windings of the motor dictates the high speed torque. Remembering that a stepper motors torque ratings are based on sinusoidal drive current; running it on a square wave signal of a switched driver is at best an approximation at low revs and is progressively worse at higher revs unless there is sufficient voltage to force the current through the winding. A good rule of thumb, for best performance, is:

    Vd = 32 * sqrt(L)
    where Vd is operating voltage, and L is the motor inductance in mH. If your drivers are limited in voltage a low inductance motor is essential if you want any reasonable speeds.

    The inductance of the windings and the drive voltage used dictates the corner speed of the motor. The calculations are too complex to describe here but the spreadsheet allows you to put in the motor parameters to get a go/no go view. In an ideal world you would want to run the motor just below its corner speed to get maximum power output and a torque that is essentially constant across a range of revs. Once you get past the corner speed the torque falls off rapidly. This is a consequence if you design for high power at cutting speeds (to minimise the likelhood of loosing steps) but then want fast rapids which take you over the corner speed - if the torque drops too low you will either lose steps or worse the motor will stall.

    So, lets look at the motors available. Pick any website, such as Zapp Automation's, and look at the list of NEMA17 and NEMA23 motors. Here are the options:

    Motor V A mH Nm Inertia
    SY42STH47-1684B 2.80 1.6 2.8 0.44 68
    SY57STH51-1008B 9.24 0.7 32.8 1.00 275
    SY57STH51-3008B 3.10 2.1 3.6 1.00 275
    SY57STH56-2008B 5.04 1.4 10.0 1.24 300
    SY57STH56-3008B 3.15 2.1 4.4 1.24 300
    SY57STH76-3008B 4.00 2.1 6.4 1.85 480

    Plugging any of these into the spreadsheet gives similar results, so which to choose? Next calculate the ideal voltage for each (the spreadsheet shows this as the 'ideal voltage')

    Motor V A mH Vd
    SY42STH47-1684B 2.80 1.6 2.8 54
    SY57STH51-1008B 9.24 0.7 32.8 183
    SY57STH51-3008B 3.10 2.1 3.6 60
    SY57STH56-2008B 5.04 1.4 10.0 101
    SY57STH56-3008B 3.15 2.1 4.4 67
    SY57STH76-3008B 4.00 2.1 6.4 81

    Lets assume we want to use a low cost driver board, such as the System3 from DIYCNC which is OK to 2.5A but limited to 30v max, or the TBA6560 boards available on eBay. None of those are going to manage 60v, indeed 24v is the likely voltage, but the motors that are the lower ideal voltage will perform better with those drivers. So on this basis the SY42STH47-1684B or the SY57STH51-3008B would be contenders. I'd probably opt for the 1Nm NEMA23 motor over the 0.44Nm NEMA17 to give a bit more leeway and scope for upgrades. Anything bigger would be a waste of money and would perform no better (and usually worse - there is such a thing as too big a motor).

    Below shows similar calculations repeated for a number of examples

    25kg gantry 4' Rockcliffe oilite bronze on steel, TR12x3 1.2m long. 1000mm/min. Torque = 0.1Nm, power = 3W so a 1Nm - 1.5Nm motor.

    35kg gantry 2m ballrace on channel, 16mm ballscrew 5mm pitch, 1.8m long, 2000mm/min. dense hardwood capable. Torque = 0.4Nm, power = 12W (typical 2Nm NEMA23 motor)

    50kg dovetail table + 5kg workpiece + 5kg vice, 20mm ballscrew 5mm pitch, 900mm long, 1200mm/min, light alloy/steel cutting. Torque = 0.9Nm , power = 32W (8Nm NEMA34 motor)

    50kg dovetail table + 10kg workpiece + 5kg vice, 25mm ballscrew 5mm pitch, 900mm long, 1800mm/min (with slightly reduced acceleration), heavy alloy/steel cutting. Torque = 1.1Nm , power = 64W (possible with 12Nm NEMA34 motor, but this is starting to get into servo motor territory to meet that speed/accel requirement)

    The calculations are contained in a Excel spreadsheet in the attached zip file http://www.mycncuk.com/attachment.p...bad542c4f63d90&attachmentid=1690&d=1265494438

    JohnTr likes this.

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