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Workbee (or lead) with Duet 3 - a dilemma in need of advice

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by Daniël van Hurk, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Daniël van Hurk

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    Hi there,

    I'm new here and I have a couple of challenges ahead of me.
    Mostly new in the CNC area so at the research stage here, I have however build two delta printers (kit form, reprap and He3d) before so I'm not completely new in the space

    I've almost decided on what I want.
    I know what I need.
    I need a 1500x1500 cnc and I need it to be a 2.2kw watercooled (seems the most silent and powerfull). This leaves me with the Tingle Tension system which is quite integrated in the workbee... supposedly also suitable for the lead (did not find anyone who has done this so far though).
    The lead is nice and modular so I found, love that. However... it has less wheels and all the stepper motors are only held together with two screws instead of 4. Not a problem if there is no tingle tension but I suspect if tension comes into play two screws might become a problem.
    Is this so?
    That is question one.

    Question 2... the size
    for a size of 1500x1500 one is probably better off using nema 23 (so I understand) and then we come to controllers.
    I do not want the computer constantly hooked up. So here we drop a couple of options, the NVEM falls, the NVUM falls, MACH3 probably even.. (or maybe a raspberri pi could save the day here, not sure yet)


    Then I found the duet 2 wifi which looks great but.... limited to 2.8 max current whilst the nema 23 uses around 3A.
    Here is where it becomes interesting.
    The BlackBox solves everything of course, but... I don't really like how it is less future proof and allows for less tinkering. However... I'm not great at programming yet.
    Not sure if I ever will be.

    So
    Does anyone know if the Duet3 can be run with the Ooznest control of the Duet2 and if not. Does anyone have experience running a cnc (any cnc for that matter) with the Duet 3.
    It came out about a year ago but the internet has not shown any usage in CNC for this board that I can find as of today. The specs of this board however are amazing. I would not need a computer, can hook up more steppers than I can think of and current limitations are basically non existent.
    But then there is something about 36V that had been mentioned, which I honestly have not wrapped my head around just yet.

    Point in case is.
    Would love mostly to have the Lead cnc with the safety of four mounting points per stepper to allow for the tingle tension system to "feel" secure. But it has not been incorporated by anyone as of yet.
    Secondly, I would like the most advanced controller that would allow for any future upgrades or tinkerings that are yet to come (which I have no idea yet what they will be) as well as internet accessability and being able to run without having my computer on.

    Does anyone who has experience in all this or some ... maybe have some insights in whether this is viable?
    Suggestions?
    Tips.. hints or shares of their own builds

    Any experience with the Duet 3 anyone?
    Any experience with the 1500 x 1500 Lead CNC with tingle tension (or without) anyone?

    What can I do?
    Do I want too much and am I reaching for the stars or will this maybe go somewhere?
    Any and all feedback is very welcome.
    Normally I don't ask for help but I think I'm at the point that I'm stuck for what to order.

    Curious to all of y'alls input.
    Everything is very much appreciated.

    Lead vs Workbee. If the lead is so amazing then why is the workbee still being sold?

    reflecting on my story it's probably more than two questions and my writing might be incoherent but I hope it illustrates the struggle I'm dealing with and hoping for some insight from you or anyone whom has it :)
     
    #1 Daniël van Hurk, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  2. Corey Corbin

    Corey Corbin Well-Known
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    What material do you plan to cut with 2.2kw spindle? Reason why I ask is because thats a heavy spindle 11lbs per google. When I google workerbee 1500x1500 and look at the gantry mechanics the X axis gong across the machine you might have a lot deflection with one aluminum extrusion and added wheels movement in the slots. I Have a sphinx build and with a makita router, I had a crash that threw all cam'd wheels out of alignment. I had to tighten and straighten the z axis and x axis wheels all over again. My cnc router X and Y axis are only 500mm and Z is 250mm and even at that distance the router still bounces. Aluminum EXT gonna flex with more weight. You might have to redesign the mechanics to hold the 2.2kw monster and that's not accounting for crashes. Just a thought.
     
  3. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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  4. Alex Chambers

    Alex Chambers Master
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    Nema23 is the size of the faceplate, not the current rating or power (torque) output. Don't confuse the maximum current rating of a stepper with the sensible operating current (about 60% as a rough guide) - can't remember the exact details of my steppers, but I run them on 2.4 Amps and they (due to a stupid mistake on my part) produced enough torque to rip a large chunk out of an 18mm thick mdf spoilboard. I doubt if you will find anyone who can truly compare the Lead and the Workbee - most of us only have one or the other - but they are both capable machines. Increasing the axes to 1500 mm is stretching the design, hanging a massive spindle on it as well is highly likely to cause frame deflection (Ooznest who designed the workbee suggest a maximum of 3Kg). A 2.2 Kw spindle is going to produce more power than the frame can withstand without flexing so the only practical reason for choosing that would be if you really needed ER16 collets. These machines are fine if you use them within their limits, but disappointing if you push them too hard.
    Alex.

    PS tensioning systems for the leadscrews interact between the leadscrew and the end plates or gantry plates - the stepper mounting and motor couplers are not under tension and will not be affected by it.
     
    #4 Alex Chambers, Sep 11, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
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  5. Giarc

    Giarc OpenBuilds Team
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    I have no experience with a Duet. I hear it is a good quality controller. What I understand is that you are building a CNC router not a 3D printer. The OpenBuilds BlackBox is designed for a 3 axis router/laser/plasma cutter/all kinds of things that use 3 axis. The Duet was made for 3D printers if I recall correctly. When I looked through all the documentation on the web just now it only seemed to mention 3D printer. If it had the same amount of documentation for Laser use and CNC routers, that would be awesome for those that want to implement it. But, I couldn't find any documents related to those other types of machines.

    I do not know what future proofing you need in a router build? If you think you want four axis, then I would chose a controller designed for four axis mills, not a 3D printer unless that controller has really good support and documnetation the for type of four axis machine I was building. Why? Product support. For example, a few people here run Duets and can help you out, but if they are not available, is there anyone at Duet that will help with a CNC mill? I have read forum posts online where people ran into problems and had trouble finding the help they needed when using it for a purpose other than which it was designed. I had considered it for a CO2 Laser controller, but could not find the information I needed anywhere so I decided against it.

    Personally I have a pre-BlackBox home built controller using an Arduino Uno with four DQ542MA drivers because they are good quality drivers and can handle the amperage of my motors. I use a Makita rt0701c router on mine. It is 1.25 HP (0.932125 KW) and it cuts everything with relative ease. These components I chose do everything I can imagine I would need for 3 axis cutting of plastics, wood, and aluminum. Because I wanted a rotary axis, I decided to build a CNC lathe. Anytime I have tried to use a machine that was designed to do a multitude of things, I have found it does nothing well. FOr the lathe build which is another 3 axis machine, I chose a BlackBox to control it. If I were ever to build a 4 axis milling machine, I would switch to LinuxCNC or Mach 3 and use an appropriate controller designed for it.

    If you really feel you need a 2.2 KW spindle, I would go with the LEAD and add the High Z Mod so you have more rigidity for the weight of that spindle. It would be best if you lowered it to the clearance you needed instead of running it up real high. Or stack your spoilboard up to get closer to the x axis.
     
    Daniël van Hurk likes this.
  6. Giarc

    Giarc OpenBuilds Team
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    I have been running my CNC router with only 2 screws holding the stepper on on my z axis for about five years using the Mueller tension system (the concept is not novel;)) and it has worked just fine. My X and Y axis use three mounting points with the same Mueller tension system. Wow! I never thought I would have something named after me. I like the sound of it.

    If you want the 4 screw mount option for the motors, you could see if the OpenBuilds Parts Store will replace the Cbeam end plates with these C-Beam Motor Mount Plate and order 2 thrust bearings and two Tension Nuts per axis.
     
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  7. jeffmorris

    jeffmorris Well-Known
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    I ordered thrust bearings and tension nuts. Do I really need the new C-Beam Motor Mount Plates?
     
  8. Giarc

    Giarc OpenBuilds Team
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    I do not think so, but those plates are thinner which may make a difference because the existing LEAD screw may not be long enough. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge will chime in.

    If you have an existing machine, you could always mill your own out of aluminum if you do not want to wait for another order. But, unless you have a metal yard available close by or aluminum on hand, economically it wouldn't make sense.
     
  9. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Confirmed. The thinner endplates are needed to work with the leadscrew lengths (or chop 12mm off the end of the extrusion)
     
  10. Daniël van Hurk

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    Thank you for this insight, I never really thought of the weight of the motor. So I'd better stick to 3kg or less.. Do you know if the extra wheels on the Z-axis for the workbee (6 wheels) allow for a heavier spindle than the 4 wheels on the Lead?
    I'm really looking for something silent and powerfull, hence that air-cooled seemed like less of a good choice, but the more I now read here the more I'd probably be looking at air-cooled and keep fingers crossed that it won't penetrate the garage walls too much noise wise..
    Glad I didn't buy anything yet before getting your and other's advice :) Thanks
     
  11. Daniël van Hurk

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  12. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Daniël van Hurk likes this.
  13. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Lead with High Z mod is the ultimate for heavy spindles
     
  14. Daniël van Hurk

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    Nice, before I didn't really have any idea on what to look for in regards to those plates and now I do, brilliant, thanks :)
     
  15. Daniël van Hurk

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    Ok, the project is getting more direction now,
    Oh great advice, good to know. I didn't really think of that. For some reason I was thinking that the tensioning would be pulling on the Nema's but glad to now find out that is not the case. This is starting to make the LEAD a good candidate again. Thanks for sharing all this valuable insight.
    I am now looking at then a Lead, with Z-mod ... I'm more looking for the 2.2kw now I realise because I want the most capable machine for the least money (don't we all). I want the size of it to be this big so I can just run to the hardware store and put the pre-cut sizes straight under it without having to do additional cutting before it fits. Guess it's a convenience thing.
    But yeah I guess I was thinking before bigger is better, assumed that it would be faster with cutting and maybe more smooth cuts.
    Lots to think about.
    But if I understand correctly the Duet 2 wifi would be able to run the nema 23's because they can run on a 60% operating current? I was indeed confusing the max current rating as it being the current neccesarry for operation. Nice to know this isn't exactly how things work, makes life easier :)
     
  16. Daniël van Hurk

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    Ooh nice, really liking that I now have the option to download these parts into my sketchup to tinker around with. Thanks for showing me this resource!

    Cheers
     
  17. Daniël van Hurk

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    How heavy do you recon the LEAD with Z mod will take?
    What is the effect of having significantly less wheels on the LEAD in general, why was the choice made for reducing the amount of wheels, do you know? (curious)

    Thanks for all the tips. Lots to think about
     
  18. Alex Chambers

    Alex Chambers Master
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    On the subject of the Duet 2 controller - my personal recommendation would be the ethernet version for reliability. I have helped many more people with WiFi connectivity issues than with the ethernet version.
    Alex.
     
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  19. Corey Corbin

    Corey Corbin Well-Known
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    You know I was pro spindle too cause I was worried about the noise. But ended up buying a Makita RT701c router. As per a previous thread I was asking questions in, one helpful poster stated that the actually cutting is way louder then the actually running of the router. The Makita is pretty quiet and 500w spindle I have is probably a tiny bit less in decibels at full power. No way to measure this. And the cutting is louder. I am really happy with the Makita noise level.
     
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