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Strong OX

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by Hytech2k, Nov 28, 2014.

  1. Paruk

    Paruk Journeyman
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    Why not make a magnetic levitation track? If a Japanese bullet train can ride on it, why not a CNC gantry? Done with the wheels and dust and debris problems.


    Also good to stick all your bits to it and tools! :ROFL:
     
  2. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Thats an excellent idea, Mag-Lev Ox.....
     
  3. Paruk

    Paruk Journeyman
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    With included tool and bits organizer!:ROFL: Never have to go look for them again…they will be around.

    Wonder how that will work with the electronics….
     
  4. George M

    George M New
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    Gerald, if you find that source for solid or aluminum wheels will you pass it on. I need to do something also, but would rather not have to go to replacing the rails.
     
  5. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    I'm using steel v-rail and wheels. The rail isn't as straight as you think it would be and spacers were too much of a hassle to get a hold of. I plan on building a plasma table for someone and I'm on the edge about using this system again. I'm considering a nice profile slide. aluminum vwheels would be great for open rail.
     
  6. Karl Miller

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    Your build notes mentioned upgrade on extrusions that aren't in the BOM. Is the BOM current?
    How can I either order some of the plates, or get the design files so I can cut my own?
    Thank you - terrific job on all the work to get this beefier version working well,
    Karl Miller

    Also, what about the area51 website?
     
  7. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    The BOM probably needs to be gone through. I am using 2080 for Y axis extrusions and 5010 for the X axis... I am currently still using the 14.5 rack on the Y and 2020 on the X but a few others here have built it with the 2020 on the X and Y. I am going to post a current copy of the DXF files here in the build tomorrow under the files tab as i'm just not in the position right now to cut them myself.

    The Area 51 site will remain down for the time being until we finish expanding our workshop and adding another person to our staff.

    Thanks for the compliments and look under the files tab tomorrow for a full set of DXF files for the plates.
     
  8. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Hello @Hytech2k
    Looking at wheel pictures and trying to figure out what happened, as we have not experienced this on any of our test rigs with the PC wheels.
    I can see that if too much weight is applied pushing on down onto the wheels over time they would want to push apart at the centers.
    From the updates you posted it looks like the machine was working great until the new heavier spindle was introduced and this makes me wonder if this was the extra weight of the spindle that caused the wheels to push apart.
    It may just be in the nature of the internal V Wheel as well after a certain amount of weight. With the solid V-Wheel the pressure will always be pushing into itself so this should never happen with these wheels.
    Either way its good feedback and we will look into what can be done to make this better.
    Thank you
    Mark
     
  9. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    I appreciate it Mark... I don't think the spindle really contributed much to it, it's only a pound heavier than the 611 that was on here. I think with the stresses of running 8-10 hours a day coupled with the fact that the polycarb wheels appear to be pretty brittle it's not a good combination to support a gantry. No worries, just need to reinvent the wheel now... :) I recall someone advertising on here awhile back about aluminum v wheels, do you by chance remember that post?

    Thanks

    Gerald
     
  10. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Thank you Gerald,
    I do remember that post but to be honest I am not sure where is. (The search function for OpenBuilds is being worked on, so that is more of a dynamic search)
    If I find it I will send your way. Not sure it worked out though as being aluminum on aluminum I think they found it wore down pretty quickly. We had considered using aluminum as well but after seeing the results we decided against it. Maybe the best best to try the Solid Xtreme Wheels with V-Slot or go to all steel rack with steel wheels.
    Thanks again for the feedback.
    Mark
     
  11. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
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    Gerald, the trail on the aluminum V-wheels goes cold here. You might be able to message the OP but the website he was creating has become unavailable.
     
  12. Chris Towles

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    Well, I think that delrin is really the right material here. uhmw plastics of all sort are very slick and work well as bearing surfaces. For instance, on my backcountry ski touring rig, my bindings ride on a aluminum pin and and uhmw bearing (acetal i believe, there are several different kinds). they go thousands of steps per day with high loads and last years before they wear and need replacement. same for the oarlocks on my drift boat, they see thousands of strokes before they wear or crack. it may just be the case that the polycarbonate is too hard for this application, i think trying delrin would be my next step and seeing what happens. if you go thru another set of wheels in 2 months again, then id say maybe its time to rethink the bearing design. I really do think that delrin is a better material for the job

    have you checked out the rollon x rail? its actually pretty reasonably priced and looks like a pretty bomber linear bering setup. a guy at an automation shop was showing me some and its pretty slick. for your machine you could probably get what you need cheap on eBay or amazon, or just find the local distributor to order and they will ship to you straight from the factory.

    Im designing a larger format machine right now. and am debating wether to try and incorporate it or not.
    I have a stack of 5010, 5050, 2550 extrusion in my shed i got factory direct from Tslots in utah. the long y axis will most likely be open rail to get my 10' length. i also need rack and pinion to get the length. the gantry and z axis will likely be 1/2 acme screws.

    I have been using onshape to start designing my machine. I haven't gotten to the side plates yet, but I'm psyched to check out your drawings as a reference. thanks for being willing to post them. i think if anything, it will be better. people are gonna still need plate sets to get started and whenever you are ready the market will be there for it. by allowing the open source community access to the design, it can grow with feedback, modifications, etc from the community. while i don't personally plan to build a f117, some of its parts are similar size to what I'm using materials wise (like the 5010 gantry beam), and being able to for instance just cut and paste a screw hole pattern avoids me plenty of time putting in the dimensions by hand or importing/exporting parts into the program to get the dimensions, etc. Its very helpful, so thanks. thats what open builds is all about anyways right? helping the community at large build machines to make cool stuff, and sharing our designs and experiences so that others can come up with their own designs. hopefully the community can help the machine grow in the process as well.
     
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  13. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Thanks Mark, just spit balling different ideas..... I found a supplier for both harden steel and hardened aluminum rack so I my try one of those with the steel V wheels you have.

    I remember checking out his site awhile back.... Thanks Rick
     
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  14. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Just received my order of delrin wheels yesterday, i'm going to get them installed and take them for a test drive.... Hopefully any flex will be minimal ..
     
  15. George M

    George M New
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    I got around to taking off a couple of my wheels on the z carriage yesterday. They both showed signs of cracking. Will be taking them all off this weekend.
    I ordered and received steel wheels from here but I know that the thought is they will wear out the aluminum open rail. I see Gerald just got Delrin wheels for his machine. I thought the Extreme solid wheels were stronger. Is that not the case?

    I really liked the idea of running on open rail to reduce material buildup from debris. Is there any steel open rail available so I will be running steel on steel if I stay with the open rail design and the steel wheels?

    By the way I am using the PC 690 router. also I have not noticed a problem with the Y rail yet.
     
  16. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    I'm just putting the delrin wheels on as a temp solutions, I have a feeling there will be too much flex for me, I could be wrong, but i'm going to test them and find out...

    I did find this site http://vgrooverail.com/

    If the delrin doesn't work out i'll probably order some steel rails from this fellow and the steel wheels from openbuilds. That should cure the problem for a long time...

    I think the Xtreme wheels are stronger then delrin in the terms of flexing, but probably considerably more brittle...
     
  17. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
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    Gerald, it might be a good idea to also change out the bearings while you have it all apart. I trashed a set on a small router jig setup in just over a week of heavy abuse. There was no apparent looseness in the wheels just mounted on the plate but when I got the assembly all put back together the slack was very clear. The only difference I noted while they were just mounted on the plate was that they seemed to spin more freely and more smoothly. In hindsight they may have just been spinning on the plastic shield plates rather than having proper contact with the ball bearings.
     
  18. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    I noticed a few bad ones when I tore apart the gantry back in march, some had a notchy/crunchy feel to them. I have some spare bearings here so i'll go ahead and replace them while i'm at it. Appreciate the heads up on that, thanks !!

    Gerald
     
  19. George M

    George M New
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    Do you think those steel rails are the same dimensions as the ones from OpenBuilds so the plates don't have to be retrofitted?
     
  20. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Good question, i'm just not sure.... I'll look closer into the measurements tonight and might have a better answer later on.....
     
  21. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Hey guys,
    Looking into this more I think its really a matter of material/design combination.
    I believe that in the design of the V wheel with the amount of plastic already removed from the wheel (almost in half already) coupled with the weight of the gantries pushing down and the V of the rail pushing theses wheels apart they are a bad choice in PC, because PC does not want to give at all. So in time with wear it makes sense that this would happen as it has to give somewhere.
    The harder PC wheel with no give in most cases is a great thing and is especially good with the Solid V Wheels and the way they can distribute the weight into themselves. But with the V wheel and your experiences we can see this is not the best combination.
    We are working on a few ideas here with the V wheel that may solve some of these issues, in the meantime we have removed them from the store so that others do not run into this as well.
    We thank you again for this invaluable feedback, as it helps us all grow as builders.
    Mark Carew
     
  22. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Thanks Mark !! If you need a beta tester sign me up.... :)
     
  23. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Will do Gerald! Thank you :thumbsup:
     
  24. GrayUK

    GrayUK Openbuilds Team Elder
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    I found the way the rail and wheels were set up in the video, quite interesting. :)
    Certainly different! Could have done with a better video showing better angles.
    Still, I think it's worth bearing in mind. :rolleyes:

    Gray
     
  25. George M

    George M New
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    So i went ahead and replaced the top wheels on my gantry with the steel ones. Even though I did not have total failures, they were all stress cracking like Gerald shows in his last picture. I thought I may not have to replace the bottom ones but in rolling them I can definitely feel they are not smooth anymore. Since I only got enough wheels for now to do the top of the gantry and Y axis I left the Extreme wheels on the bottom. Now the question will be how soon the aluminum rails will wear out.
    Replacing all the wheels and track is going to be an expensive proposition.
     
  26. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Not sure what video you're referring to Gray, the Openrail and wheels are used in pretty much what would be a normal type of setup. My Joe's Evo is the same way, just with angle iron(for the moment) instead of V-rail.

    The majority of the wear will be on the top rail. Did you replace all 6 of the wheels on the top on each plate with steel? If so, if you went with a steel v rail you could cut that amount down to just 2 wheels on the top and 2 on the bottom, the only reason I went with 6 is to try and eliminate as much deflection as possible when using the plastic wheels. My Evo uses 2 on the top and 2 on the bottom of each plate with a 200+ lb gantry, i've been using it that way for over 2 years now with no issues.

    I'm going to get the delrin wheels installed tonight and run a bunch of signs through my machine in the morning. Delrin might be ok, just not sure yet, i'm going to test it out before moving to steel wheels and rails...
     
  27. George M

    George M New
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    Interesting!. You meen like put a wheel on each of the outside holes both top and bottom? That would be strong enough?
    So that would be only 4 wheels for each side of the Y axis and 8 wheels for the gantry?
     
  28. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Yep, that would be just fine for this application... The gantry with everything on it for the F-117 probably weighs between 30-40lbs, the gantry on my Evo weighs over 200 lbs with just 2 steel wheels on the top and bottom of the Y plates.... The wheels are slightly larger on the Evo size gw2.

    Here's a link that might help http://www.smslinear.com/guidewheelstrack.php
     
  29. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    PC is better with compressive loads than delrin which acts a bit spongy. Introducing synthetic oil and/or grease such as that from some bearings and some cleaning/lubricating agents can lead to stress corrosion cracking in the PC. Solvents attack it and UV will too unless a stabilizer and/or coating is added.
    If using an aluminum on aluminum solution then I think a hard coat anodize is the first route to take. However, It's likely to still not be enough for the repeated line loading and type of frictional force seen within groove. The aluminum oxide layer is very hard stuff, but it's brittle, has poor shear strength, and is thin. Once the hard coat is compromised the rest of the structure gets devastated pretty fast. Then issues like fretting or galling present themselves. There are some methods of impregnating the pourous structure with oils and ptfe, but these are tough and expensive to achieve because of the challenge of obtaining uniform pore structure and impregnation.
    I've considered the company Gerald mentioned for aluminum rails and wheels. They didn't have steel at the time. I sourced steel in longer lengths elsewhere. Im not greatly satisfied, but it gets it done and is reliable.
    Most grades of aluminum are unsuitable for constant contact load applications.
    The hard coat will break unless there is greater contact.
    The correct aluminum for this application would be one of the 3 series. Unfortunately it would cost less to use the steel options on the market. It would be nice to have investment molded wheels on top of spray cast extrusion or cast and ground rod/bar, but I can't see that happening on the cheap.

    Edit: On another note. Mark, check some of these wheels under polarised light for internal stresses. I've seen these types of failures because of internal stresses related to rapid machining and mold flow. I have access to a polariscope. If you want you could send me samples from different batches or from the same machine but with different feeds and speeds. It's possible that a simple solution to this is just a quick anneal in a kitchen oven or backing off on the production time.

    Joe
     
    #269 Joe Santarsiero, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
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  30. GrayUK

    GrayUK Openbuilds Team Elder
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    Am I not seeing 2 pairs of rails being used Horizontally, with sets of two wheels in each slot, being pinched, and held in place by bolts determining the exact width?
    I've not had much to do with Openrail, but I don't think I've seen that method used in a Vertical situation either. If what I'm seeing is right, it does of course put quite a stress onto the top side of each wheel. Couldn't see how many he had on each board though.

    Gray
     

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