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pain in my ox

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by dcarlisle, Mar 21, 2015.

  1. Serge E.

    Serge E. Journeyman
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    Didn't even think of that ... the regular silicon seems to be holding up. A quick Google (a bit late) for some MSDS (material safety data sheet) about the regular stuff and it shows flash point at above 93 degrees Celcius (about 200 F). It apparently might fail as a 'glue' as it reaches that kind of temperature (mostly through shrinking before igniting ?) If memory serves me right, the driver shuts down long before it reaches that sort of temperature (was it 50 C or so ?)
     
  2. edward siegel

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    I think you should go back to default settings in your software or even uninstall and reinstall
    and start over then put your effort on getting one motor to work properly then use the same settings on the rest
    mach3 is very touchy its sounds like your all over the place with settings
    then of course you could always order a gecko g540 like I did and in the end it works flawlessly ....if you go that route make sure you order the resister kit with it...... It sets the amp output to your motors unless your motors are 3.5 amp to start with
    good luck .... oh im no expert I just stayed in a holiday in express last night lol
     
  3. elie

    elie New
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    Hi Guys
    Need help... I followed through this post and its great. What can I do? I haven't bolted the machine down to the bench? Is this an issue?

    I'm getting a shacking/ shuddering issue on the Y. especially noisy when it travels across +y with +x In fact its pretty noisy. I've seen other builds much smoother travel.

    I managed to cut something though today, and it worked... tolerance slightly out by 0.4. So I'm wondering if I'm doing it correct? and worked through issues and solved a lot, such as the way the motors are traveling etc. But I'm getting a lot of noise on the gantries... this is video link https://goo.gl/photos/z4VEgyzTRbWwzB9v8

    I attached my setting. My setup is 1000 x 1000 OX CNC

    4x NEMA 23 High Torque Stepper Motor
    Step angle 1.8° ±5%
    Holding torque 123.4 N.cm (12.6kg.cm, 177.5oz.in)
    Voltage 2.5V
    Phase Number 2
    Current/Phase 2.80A
    Resistance 0.9Ω/Phase ±10%
    Inductance 2.5mH/Phase ±20%
    Number of Wires 4
    Insulation Resistance 100MΩMin. 500VDC
    Weight 0.70kg

    24V 360W Power Supply

    GT3 Pulley
    Pitch GT3
    Teeth 20
    Max Belt Width 6mm
    Total Width 17.6mm
    Bore 6.35mm

    GT3 Timing Belt
    Pitch GT3
    3mm = inches 0,12 unroundet inches = (0,1181102362204724)
    Width 5mm

    8mm Lead Screw
    Pitch 2mm
    Lengths 290mm

    CNC xPro v2

    Microsteps set at 1/8
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    They sound massively underpowered to me.

    The most you will be getting out of the xpro is around 1.2a per channel so you need the current pots cranked up at max, but won't power 2.5a motors properly afraid to say.
     
    #64 Jonny Norris, Nov 7, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  5. elie

    elie New
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    Really, on the Xpro Wiki they say you need the current pots at min before stalling?
    Now confused. I can hear the motors humming on ideal. I've increased current pots to max
    Still not a smooth move
    What do you recommend? Bigger PSU? Using 24V at the moment... This is what was recommended from supplier
     
  6. elie

    elie New
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    I decided to test out calibration of the board and so i sent "G21 G1 f400 y150" i did this 5 times along the X to measure the length of Y to make sure i get the same length each time. i.e 150

    When i measured the leanth of Y against 150mm I get 4 different lengths. Does anyone what this issue is? Is it noise?

    On the X command it seems fine
     
  7. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    Urm min before stalling? No lol that's terrible advice, would you say it is any smoother with them up max?
     
  8. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    Sounds like you are loosing steps. Motors get quieter when powered correctly, low frequency humming is a sign of being underpowered, over powered they make a quiet high frequency buzz.

    People who have recommended X pros on this forum have since found these boards are not up to it. They really need to remove all recommendations for them from this site.

    This video shows motors underpowered a 1.3a and powered at rated current, I'd say your motor sound like they are getting around half an amp.

    Stepper driver current and noise, | OpenBuilds
     
    #68 Jonny Norris, Nov 7, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
    GrayUK likes this.
  9. elie

    elie New
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    What's the solution or recomendation Jonny?
     
  10. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    Xpro is just remarketed 3D printing card much like pibot which l even if you are able to cut parts will burn their chips out driving nema 23's and if that doesn't happen the roughness of the machine will eventually push you to looking to replace. individual mosfet drivers bob and motion controller would be your most likely choice. uc100 is a great little motion controller and works with uccnc for £30 is as good as Mach3 at 1/4 of the price. A fully opto isolated bob you can pick up for around £40 and cw5045 drivers are excellent.
     
  11. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    I have an Ox setup running with Xpro, and it works fine. Check for some older posts from me and @Serge E. for tuning tips. Xpro is an original design for CNC, and was never intended for 3D printing.
     
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  12. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    Got any video proof? Every I've seen running xpros sound awful.

    And fair few guys here have had to swap them out.
     
  13. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    I think your speed and acceleration rates are set too low. That also made mine "chatter". I also wound up with the pots set at about the halfway mark, not cranked all the way. Here are my Grbl settings:

    $0=10 (step pulse, usec)
    $1=255 (step idle delay, msec)
    $2=0 (step port invert mask:00000000)
    $3=6 (dir port invert mask:00000110)
    $4=0 (step enable invert, bool)
    $5=0 (limit pins invert, bool)
    $6=0 (probe pin invert, bool)
    $10=3 (status report mask:00000011)
    $11=0.020 (junction deviation, mm)
    $12=0.002 (arc tolerance, mm)
    $13=0 (report inches, bool)
    $14=1 (auto start, bool)
    $20=0 (soft limits, bool)
    $21=1 (hard limits, bool)
    $22=1 (homing cycle, bool)
    $23=3 (homing dir invert mask:00000011)
    $24=50.000 (homing feed, mm/min)
    $25=1200.000 (homing seek, mm/min)
    $26=250 (homing debounce, msec)
    $27=3.000 (homing pull-off, mm)
    $100=26.670 (x, step/mm)
    $101=26.670 (y, step/mm)
    $102=200.000 (z, step/mm)
    $110=7500.000 (x max rate, mm/min)
    $111=7500.000 (y max rate, mm/min)
    $112=1500.000 (z max rate, mm/min)
    $120=150.000 (x accel, mm/sec^2)
    $121=150.000 (y accel, mm/sec^2)
    $122=150.000 (z accel, mm/sec^2)
    $130=510.000 (x max travel, mm)
    $131=770.000 (y max travel, mm)
    $132=170.000 (z max travel, mm)
     
    #73 John Meikrantz, Nov 7, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
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  14. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    Check the video attached to my Cebu build.
     
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  15. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    I think @Serge E. has several attached to his build as well, as does the original Ox.
     
    elie likes this.
  16. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    The one where it's cutting? And you can't hear the motors?
     
  17. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    Yes, I thought you were interested in seeing how the Ox performs with the Xpro. Movements are quite smooth.
     
  18. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    What current are your motors? Those things output around 1.2a repeatable max current. And 2.5a peak So your running them at .6a repeatable and 1.25a max.
     
  19. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    Can't tell from the vid. Detuning any Drv tb illegra chips with nema 23's means just one thing, they don't have enough current at max to run quietly so you are underpowering them even more just to reduce the noise. As motors will run super quiet overpowered just get hot quick
     
  20. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    I am running 223oz. NEMA23, rated at 2.5a. I never bothered to measure the actual current from the board itself, but the DRV8825s are rated at 2.5a peak. The Xpro is basically a combined Arduino and Grbl Shield. I did have to put heat sinks on the drivers, as one would go into thermal shutdown occasionally. Have been able to run some pretty aggressive cuts without stalling, including cutting some aluminum hold downs by accident!
     
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  21. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    So overheating at anything over 1.2a peak with heatsinks and your motors are under half powered. I'm surprised your not loosing steps like Ellie.
     
    #81 Jonny Norris, Nov 7, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
  22. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    Like I said, I never actually measured the current, so I can't say for sure. As I and others have found, running 8825s in an enclosure without a fan can be problematic! The motors themselves run cool.

    Not sure why you're so angry about Xpro. If you are looking at a Grbl based solution, it's one of the simpler choices. Similar to Tinyg, if you want to go the single board route. No doubt it isn't in the same class as a Gecko solution, and Grbl is not in the same class as LinuxCNC or Mach3. But, it's inexpensive and relatively simple to get up and running.

    I have an Ox, running 4xNEMA23, with Xpro, and it works fine for me. Ellie should be able to get his tuned without throwing something away and starting from scratch.
     
    Serge E. likes this.
  23. Jonny Norris

    Jonny Norris Well-Known
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    It's not capable of being tuned to 2.3a @ $129 when you can pick up 4 wantai mosfets capable of true 4.2a repeatable current for same money, It's just bad advice.
     
  24. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    Hey John,
    What does mosfet tech have to do with this?
    Joe
     
  25. elie

    elie New
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    Can this discussion be to help me solve my ox problem with the xpro that I have at the moment.
    All I'm asking for is help rather than someone talk about their anger to the xpro board!
     
  26. John Meikrantz

    John Meikrantz Well-Known
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    :)

    Elie, try my grbl settings that I posted a few messages back. One of the things that I ran into as well as @Serge E. was the speed and acceleration settings. Increasing those helped out quite a bit for smoothing out the motion. Once you try that, let's try to figure out where you might be losing steps. I also had to fiddle with belt tension on both sides of the y axis to make sure they were the same, and also had problems with the gear slipping on the motor axis, which needed tightening.
     
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  27. Serge E.

    Serge E. Journeyman
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    Sorry for coming in late, but yes - using the xPro with higher power NEMA23, heavy router, ... with no issues, once I fixed a few errors on my part. Going from memory: heat sinks, fans, a 24V power supply and a few tweaks to GRBL parameters fixed the chatter, the missed steps and a few other mysteries.

    -----

    1) get heat sinks for the drivers.

    They will be driven hot with the bigger NEMA23. They have built-in protection and they WILL shutdown before getting to meltdown. Things get worse from there, but no smoke and saved drivers. I can't say as much for your bits / work. The xPro pots for my NEMA23 are not on full, but probably a bit pass 3/4. My NEMA23 are, from memory, 2.5 amps ! Yes, too close to the xPro limit, but it works just fine after the appropriate ajustments.

    You are also using 2 drivers, left and right Y steppers. If one gets hot enough, it shuts down while the other keeps going. Use strong enough NEMA23, running high amps, and you won't notice that one is doing more of the work, if not all of it. That's when things also go from bad to worse. If your tool end is near the working stepper, you won't really see anything However, if it is near the one skipping steps or not being driven, you will notice something wrong ... eventually.

    2) get a good fan blowing over the heatsinked drivers. Heat is your enemy. The drivers WILL shut down, possibly short bursts, skipping steps for no apparent reason. However, the controller will keep going through your G-code as if all was fine. That's also real bad news. It's also a cause of the chatter noise ... steppers not keeping up with the music.

    In my case, those two minor and inexpensive fixes worked miracles for myOX.

    3) there is a GRBL parameter which needs to be tweak ... I'll have to go through my notes (or posts) to say which one. IT was the one which actually fixed the chatter noise on the Y axis steppers (and X although it was less pronounced). It's ... memory blank right now ... something with timing or length of pulses, I think ?? Anyways, the default was way way way off. The only noise I get now is from the heavy as heck router of mine. A spindle would be much quieter, so I hear ...

    4) get a 24V power supply with sufficient amps to drive everything... This also helped with the Y but mostly with missed steps on all steppers, especially if you use hefty NEMA23. As others stated here and in other builds, low voltage & amps will not allow your steppers to react properly. Pulses drive them : if timing and 'power' of those pulses are off, a stepper will misbehave.

    Think of it this way : put the wrong fuel in an engine and it won't work has intended ... or at all. Same thing if you let it run too hot, especially for too long.

    Why I didn't notice those issues early on, you might ask ? Being greener than a golf course lawn in spring was the good excuse not to pay attention to the noise. Heck, it's mechanical and shop machinery, it should be making noise, right ?

    I started using myOX in dead of winter, in a unheated garage, doing short runs just trying to get a hang of things ... So I had no issues keeping drivers and steppers nice and cool. I was freezing my butt off, but myOX was just fine. Then came spring and myOX would be misbehaving with no apparent cause. The noise was getting worse. What used to worked, no longer worked. Closing or opening the garage door and the windows was throwing me off without me noticing... There I was, checking for loose wiring, took nearly everything apart a few times, ... I was just about to give up ! Eventually, I got a hint. Got myself a few tiny heat sinks, dirt cheap too, and some heat transfer paste ... stuck them on the drivers and ... myOX was working again ! Then switched to a 24v power supply, a few tweaks and the noise was gone !! Then summer came, 2 fans right over the controller was the fix as myOX was misbehaving again.

    myOX can now run for hours non stop with no issues, aside from user errors.
     
  28. Serge E.

    Serge E. Journeyman
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    Did you go through the full length YouTube of myOX carving 3/4" plywood sign ... cutting right through the plywood, not just engraving a few marks on the surface ? I think it's nearly an hour long, get some popcorn and a drink ...

    Ran my xPro quite hot for a long time ... until I realized the missed steps was its drivers shutting down (self protect). Now what ... at least a year later, and the same old xPro is still running fine. I didn't even upgrade the code on it. I don't use it, myOX, as often as I wished, but it does nice work now that I have nearly all issues (100% of which are my errors) fixed.

    HEAT SINKS ARE A MUST, as using a fan. If you are running the larger/stronger NEMA23, as I am, those little ICs will get too hot to touch ! But my xPro survived my abuse ...

    Heck, for a few months I even had one of the steppers wired wrong with no apparent effect on the xPro. I'm still trying to figure out how the stepper was even able to work. One of my old posts should have details on how bad it was wired ... It was the 'far' (relative to position of xPro) Y stepper. Likely other was able to cover for the far stepper not being up to par, even if 1500mm away.

    If the xPro, and that stepper, managed to survive all of the errors I did early on I'm wondering which ones I missed. Only one that comes to mind is improperly wiring the power supply to the xPro.

    I even had the Y steppers going in opposite directions for a while. I do mean a while, but just doing short travels as I was wondering where THAT noise was coming from ...

    The only thing I need to clean up is using the limit switches. Here again, at fault it's either my wiring (unshielded !) or my switches (not debounced !) rather than the xPro misbehaving. I'm still running without the limit switches. The only time I would of needed them was when they would not of helped - my Z stepper just gave up and the router plunged deep, but, luckily, not deep enough that the limit switch would of triggered ... that would of been a disaster.

    I will admit, having the drivers soldered on the xPro scared me for the longest of time. What if I had burned one out ? It has proven tougher than I gave it credit for. But I would still rather have the drivers in sockets of some sorts.

    Just my experience mind you.
     
  29. Serge E.

    Serge E. Journeyman
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    That's it ... getting those number right fixed the chatter for myOX.

    The version I run is older, not the same $ parameters, but still the fix.
     
  30. Serge E.

    Serge E. Journeyman
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    I actually cut deep into a V-slot, as if it was butter on a hot sunny day ... I forgot to zero my Z AND had my Y zeroed way too close to the front. My router overhangs enough that it goes passed the front spanner v-slot.

    Three lessons learned that time :
    1. zero ALL axis before running a job,
    2. when in doubt, zero again
    3. myOX will be able to engrave and cut aluminum with no issues
     

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