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OX Balls - 1605 Ballscrew Powered 1000mmx1000mmm OX derivative

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by Julius, Jun 21, 2016.

  1. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Great Build @Julius thank you for sharing :thumbsup:
     
  2. Daniel Lundberg

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    Hi.
    I built an cnc machine based on OX-cnc. Mine is 1500 x 1500 mm. I have bad result and I think it is because I use cog belt.
    Did you also had problem with the results since I see you changed from cog belt to Ball screw?
     
  3. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    Do you mean the rubber gt3? I would not use that over 500mm without running dual belts. I have extra if you need it. The ballscrews are fantastic and allow me to cut 3/4" mdf in a single pass
     
  4. Daniel Lundberg

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    Yes, I'mean the gt3. I use one belt for each side since I use two Nema 23-motors, one on each side. I had bad result. For example, cutting 120 mm results in 120,4mm. Cutting 1000 mm, the results are 1000,4mm. My fault is 0,4mm. I thinking about changing to ball screw since I Think the gt3 belt is shagging too much when machine is cutting. What do you Think?
     

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  5. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    I dont know. It depends how hard you are cutting. You should rather look into calibrating it properly and use the real size of the bit in your CAM.
     
  6. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    Hi Julius
    I have 1605 Ball screws - I have not yet mounted to my 1500 x 1000mm OX (running 269 oz in motors on GT belt 24V drive).

    what I have read suggests that somewhere around 800-1500 RPM is the upper limit for a 16mm ballscrew (to prevent whip at 1500mm length)?

    1) Are you still running at 3500mm/min Max (Or did this get better after fixing issues ect)?
    2) when you said 5K was your math limit - was this based on steps per second that the driver board was capable of or force required to move the gantry and cut material?

    If you are running at 3500mm/min / 5mm screw pitch = 700mm/min top gantry speed. I think that this also means you are turning the screw at 700 RPM? I curious to know if max screw speed was the issue here or motor torque? I Imagine you know - belt and pully to overdrive to ballscrew could get you a higher screw RPM - as long as motor torque or screw whip was not limiting factor.

    Joe - with the 1610's what speed are your achieving and what lengths and motor torque do you have? has ballscrew critical speed = screw whip been something you have experienced?
     
  7. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    Matt,

    The torque curve for most motors are preferred to be under 1000rpm before it starts to dip exponentially. With the 270ozin, you definitely have power to spare.
    With 24V, and 175 ozin I can cut 1/2" MDF in a single pass at 100 ipm before my Z becomes the limiting factor (Youd need a 1mm finish pass afterwards to have it cut square and straight)

    My rapid max is 4200mm/min, and I cut all day at 3500 with 1/8 bits in wood. Thats the gantry speed, not screw speed.

    5k was done by steps/mm*pitch*rpm or something. I suggest you use this Stepper Motor Calculator then times the rev/sec *5 (for 5mm pitch screw) * 60 (seconds in a minute) to get the max speed. I have it set to 100 steps to get the value that represents what I actually get. Im going to test tonight to see if I can get it to 5k again, but 4.2 is where I can cut without worrying about acceleration issues, lost steps, or binding.

    Going to a 48V PSU or 10mm screws will double the max to about 8.5m/min

    Im going to go read into the whip amount now, but i can see the 1605 handling 200ipm at 1000mm span easily.
     
  8. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    Interesting the link you provided tells me - At 2Amps drive current, 6 mH, 24V, 200 steps per rotation (1.8 degree motors) = 5 Rev/Sec (Max speed for circuit). If this is true then (5 Rev/Sec * 60 sec) 300 RPM at the leadscrew is the top speed for my set up with current setup parameters.

    300RPM * 5mm (lead screw pitch) = is 1500mm/min at the gantry.

    Good to have as a data point since anything faster requires a parameter change. It is also well lower than the critical speed for ballscrew.
     
  9. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    #39 Julius, Oct 16, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  10. Anthony Bolgar

    Anthony Bolgar Journeyman
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    I checked out you ballscrew suppliers ebay store, must say he has some pretty fantastic prices for ball screws and linear rails. One question for you, what softwware did you use to map the Xbox controller to keystrokes?
     
  11. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    His prices are even better if you PM him (like, 50$ a metre +10$ for custom machining)

    I was using Keystrokes but Xpadder works a lot better!
     
  12. Anthony Bolgar

    Anthony Bolgar Journeyman
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    Thanks
     
  13. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    I am using the TinyG board presently so 24V is my power supply upper end at the moment.

    The stepper motors were part of a Kit - motor inductance was not on my watchlist at the time of purchase

    It sounds like your experience is that none of these factors has yet proven to be a problem with direct drive and 1605 ballscrews (Are you using the Dewalt 611?) - that's good to hear. What spindle speed do you typically use?

    Take away #2 for anyone considering - 1610 ballscrews seem the better choice (10mm pitch vs 5mm).
     
  14. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    No issues really. 24V can easily get you to 150ipm or so. Keep in mind the coarser 10mm thread needs more torque to turn as well. Unless you intend to cut faster then that you're just splitting hairs.

    I just bought a 48V psu. Math says i can get 8600mm/min now but physics says I'm capped at 7400mm before the ball screw reaches resonance. If this works, my machine is going to jog at lightning speeds and probably scare me :p

    Yes 611 at speed 1 for everything. Typically 1x bit diameter for my depth.
     
    gwandad likes this.
  15. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    I started full time work at a local machine/CNC shop. Lots of great equipment there. I'll update this eventually with the new mods and am slowly planning a new machine too.
     
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  16. GrayUK

    GrayUK Openbuilds Team Elder
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    You must be like a kid in a sweet shop/toyshop!!!! :D
     
  17. Piziwate

    Piziwate New
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    Very nice build ! Thank you for sharing...
    By the way did you published the updated plates ? I would really like to make a same build.
     
  18. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    No i haven't. I've been busy with other stuff, like getting a new power supply and have lots to update in here :p

    Maybe this weekend I'll check the zip and just remove my logo from the plates. I'm not sure if I'd recommend using ballscrews without using the proper BF and BK end mounts anymore though without a good understanding of how they work. It did cause me a lot of headaches figuring it all out.
     
  19. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    Hey Matt, Sorry for such a late reply. I don't know what happened. You didn't officially tag me though. ´┐╝
    It's been a couple of years since I designed my system. Off the top of my head; I purchased 1450mm(bearing to bearing) 1610's with bk and bf bearing blocks. My gantry is a shorter 1610. 950mm I believe. Motors are automationtechnologies(formerly keling) N23 425oz/in. Drivers ended up having to be something a step up from what the GRBL combos currently offer. After some research I choose the pricier leadshine MX4660 over the Gecko G540 as the leadshine combo had more to offer towards what I had planned to do. There's a Warp9 ESS in between the driver package and PC. Power supply is tuned to about 51V using a meanwell 48v supply. The electronics play a factor too. wheew! That said, I had the system rapids capped at 600 Ipm or ... 15240mm per min. for a while without loss of steps due to rapids before backing off(for sanity reasons) to a cap of 300ipm or 7600mm per min. It will go much much faster if I tweak the accel and decel rates(I tested and tweaked this and no longer have the accel decel numbers in memory or written down). I do remember that it did roughly 850ipm or 21k mm per min. without a hiccup, but it was getting all too violent for my taste(Should add,this was also before the machine was bolted to it's base). My system is set against a wall so my long axis is my X. The Y is the gantry(ISO/FDIS 841:2001E):troll:. The problem I ran into is that the two X Chinese ballscrews have different runouts. One will whip more than the other given the speed. This is because they're machined from as rolled stock and not calibrated(straightened) to run true as possible. One is very well in and the other is way out. This is reasonably noticeable for one at 600ipm and very much so at 850. The other would run the 850ipm without much of a wobble. That said, there are many sources for the variation.. They're as rolled stock, then machined individually, shipping, owner handling, and maybe one being driven while the other isn't(gantry twist and torquing of one over the other).
    Also keep in mind that screw whip calcs(while handy) are halved when a load(nut) is dead center in the screw.
    I appologize for the long winded post(probably needs editing).
    Below is a dated photo of my system using 1610's for clarity (sorry members only).
    Edit: Found an old vid of 400ipm and 600ipm
     
    #49 Joe Santarsiero, Nov 26, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  20. anas adawi

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    hello

    great work i like it

    im building like this , can you help me i want to see your cad file for this machine
    [email protected]
     
  21. TheHebs

    TheHebs New
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    Hey I am curious why you say this isnt rigid enough for aluminum. I am wanting to build a CNC that can do aluminum. I was actually working on a design similar to yours, but maybe a little beefier. Could you tell me if you think it would do aluminum?

    Ignore the gantries and the motor plates. I just used the openbuilds step assemblies for their actuator bundles as a mock up. I would design custom motor plates that held the motors as well as fastened the C beams to the lateral 4040's in the front and rear. I would also replace the generic gantries in the picture with an ox style gantry, similar to what you used, but with the ball screw nut mounts on the inside of the c beam.

    Any input is appreciated.
     

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  22. gta18

    gta18 New
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    Hi, i was building something like yours last year and bought all of my parts too.

    I got busy and just continuing the build, its a 1500x1500mm using c beams and 20x60s.

    I bought oversized ballscrews for it 2505 for my nema23 motors ,worried obaut whipping at that time but now before cutting out my alu plates, I've read that my nema 23 wouldnt be enough power to turn my 25mm ballscrews fast enough.

    Should i get me the 1605s?

    What do you guys think?
     
  23. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    It'll probably work. 2505 is definitly overkill imo. If swapping your design over and waiting for new screws to arrive is not a problem maybe go for 16mm screws.
    You said you're using Cbeam. I hope you arent planning on putting the 25mm screws in the opening. I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. I'm not so sure if the 16mm screws will fit the gap.
     
  24. gta18

    gta18 New
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    I actually have the ballscrew above the cbeam and using hiwin 20mm rails.

    I havent ordered the 16mm screws yet ($250 for the set of 3).

    I was concerned about the weight of the 25mm screws to be too heavy for the nema23 steppers and i wont get enough speed.

    If i go ahead with the 25mm and comes out too heavy then ill have to remachine my mounts.
    [​IMG]

     
  25. gta18

    gta18 New
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    Here's some screenshots of my design.

    See all photos here: "Prime Photos


     
  26. gta18

    gta18 New
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    I think ill just incorporate additional holes for the 1605 set.

    I juat looked up the hole dimensions for 1605 and i can just add it to my plates and if 2505 doesnt work out then ill just order 1605 and swap it out.

    Hopefully 2505 works though since i have it on hand already.

    I cant find anyone who has implemented it yet.
     
  27. Julius

    Julius Well-Known
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    Gta18 you have more research to do. Go find a whip calculator, get the mass of your gantry, then pick your motors. A 2005 screw isn't harder to turn then a 1605 in the same set up. The motor only deal with inertia and torque, not carrying the whole screw. That's what end mounts are for.

    My latest machine has 2010 and 2510 screws and gets over 400ipm before my arduino is over loaded. I consider 25mm essential for 1500mm spans. My 2510 will whip at 620ipm. My 2010 whips at 1100ipm.
     
  28. Joe Santarsiero

    Joe Santarsiero OB addict
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    Oh boy Julius. :confused: That's too much to cover for one night. In lite form; a 2005 screw is the harder of the two to turn and 16mm screws are more than necessary for these hobby machines.
     
  29. gta18

    gta18 New
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    My dillema is that I alredy have bought and have on hand the 2505 and nema 23 motors. So it looks like ill just go ahead and build it and hope it works, hopefully my motors would be able to handle the 400ipm that julius mentioned.

    I wish i didnt get too excited last year and just pulled the trigger on buying these stuff before doing any research.



     
  30. gta18

    gta18 New
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    Julius,

    What motors and drivers are you using for your latest machine?


     

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