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openBuilds FreeBURN-2-Mini V-slot CO2 Laser (40-50w)

Discussion in 'Laser Cutters' started by openhardwarecoza, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    So, took an interesting experiment - I don't want to mention it too much since I definitely don't want to send them anymore business... but long story short - anything thats great in the Open source hardware scene, gets clones long before you can say "china"

    VSlot being no exception. A few months ago (long before starting this build) I chatted to Mark about the problem and subsequently ordered a small sample to see what we are up against (best case we have opposition, worst case we have a ****** product dragging down our names?).

    Seeing the tracking number creeping closer - I decided to hold off on ordering things from OpenBuildsPartstore.com for this build, until the fake cloned chinese mini v wheels arrived (which happened to be today)

    Honestly, I was expecting the worse. However my defination of worse was way off! I was expecting delrin wheels with bad machining marks, or substandard hardware. But no, turns out when the chineses decide to clone Mini V Wheels, they do it in the WORST way imaginable: By making a die and manufacturing these with Injection molded ABS! ***!

    1. Surface finish:

    A picture says a thousand words - imagine getting this surface to roll smoothly? NEVER going to happen :)

    surfaces.jpg

    2. Bearing spacing:

    Yeah I think they need to remake that die anyway - since the ridge in the middle is off center (literally laughing my a** off at this!) and you can't get the one side's bearing pressed in far enough

    bearings.jpg

    3. Precision shims:

    Uhmm, yeah they didnt really try cloning this at all, they thought simply supplying a M5 washer will suffice - well it doesnt since it rubs on the bearings.... sigh

    spacers.jpg spacers.jpg

    Out of the sample of 12 wheels, I can only succesfully HAMMER in the bearings into 5 of them. The other 7 shrunk so much after molding the bearing doesnt even go in with a hammer as persuation!

    Long story short - support OpenBuildsPartStore.com!!! Long story Part 2 - need to order proper wheels now :) Build on hold till that parcel gets here
    Might have to try twisting Mark's arm and get 12 mini v wheel kits from the Fairshare programme (;
     
    Mark Carew likes this.
  2. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Oh forgot to post a progress update over the weekend here:

    But I did manage to install the drive shafts for the Y Axis and connect them to a motor. Note BOM change:

    5 x 20T 8mm bore GT2 pulleys (2 for idlers, 2 for driving belt, 1 for the short loop belt connecting the rear shaft to the motor)
    1 x 20T 6.35mm bore, GT2 pulley (for the motor)
    1 x short GT2 closed loop belt 55 tooth, 110mm (local supplier https://www.robotics.org.za/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=730&search=gt2)


    other side.jpg

    stacked pulleys.jpg

    bearing.jpg


    motor.jpg
     
  3. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Mocked up the carriages using the fake wheels for now (spacing is the same despite the fact they don't roll (; - so works to check the spacing) and successfully installed the X min and X max SN-04 inductive endstops as well:

    endstop min.jpg
    endstops.jpg
     
  4. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Thanks Adam Glazer for the $35 donation!

    If anyone else would like to donate to this project, you can do so from https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=45DXEXK9LJSWU - if you could post a URL to your website/Google Plus or Facebook profile it would make my shoutout to you much easier :)

    To complete the project I basically still need
    +-$50 for OpenBuildsPartstore.com
    $80 for a Laser PSU
    $110 for a Laser tube
    -+$100 for a Revision 4 of the electronics controller. For this one we could probably do a "donation over $70 gets you an assembled and tested board shipped anywhere in the world" - comment if you think thats an idea worth pursuing? Changes from the last design: SD card for PC-less cutting, 12v Inductive endstop support, more troubleshooting LEDs, etc
     
    matt_o_70 and Nick W like this.
  5. Larry_AK

    Larry_AK New
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    $70 donation gets a electronics controller board, sounds like a really interesting, good idea to me!
     
  6. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Thanks for some more donations that came in over the weekend :)
    James K Rivera: USD$10 - Thanks James!
    Larry M Mackey: USD$20 - Thanks www.LarrysAlaska.com!
     
  7. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Worked on the electronics a bit...

    LASERV43ELEC.PNG

    Based off my previous design at
    https://github.com/openhardwarecoza/OPHW-HW-Laser-H4H/tree/master/Electronics V3

    Updates:

    • Switch from MCP2200 to CH340 USB/Serial
    • Add a RPI footprint - so you can elect not to solder in the USB portion, and rather use a Pi with straight TTL serial
    • Added reverse bais diodes to the Endstops to make it usable with high voltage PNP inductive endstops
    • Cleanup + tweaks of small issues from previous version
     
  8. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    Yes- I'd be tempted to donate again for a controller board
     
  9. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Right so after spending the weekend playing with the LansingMakersNetwork version of Marlin, I am happy to proceed with this as an option. Using a stock Ramps1.4 though, no I am not happy. It has NO interlocks to keep you safe! So I stripped down a Ramps schematic, added in a NAND/AND gate interlock as from my Lasersaur derived board.

    Other notable features:

    24v inductive probe endstops with hardware debouncing
    4 x general purpose mosfet 24v outputs - for lights, fans, exhaust, chillers, mains relays, etc
    Kept Ramps headers to use http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRapDiscount_Full_Graphic_Smart_Controller
    Built in switchmode 5v converter - can run board from 24-35v without overheating the 7805 on the Arduino Mega
    Pluggable screw terminals all round


    Laser-controller.PNG
     
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  10. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    I sent the file off for an estimate and first shop never responded. Second shop quoted me $1150 usd (Ouch!). They added setup fee $70 and a $560 design charge? I can understand a set up charge but Design fee? Gonna have to keep looking...
     
    #70 matt_o_70, Mar 7, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2015
  11. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    I meant upload the PDF / Quote - want to see on what they are overcharging so much - I don't mind giving them an email or two as well...
     
  12. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    ERC and DRC says we are ready to order to prototypes :)

    bottom.PNG top.PNG PCB1.PNG
     
    Mark Carew and Nick W like this.
  13. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    WOW how cool is this! You rock Peter :)
    Everyone here in the shop is excited to see this bad boy fired up and cutting its first cuts.
    Keep up the great work
    Mark
     
  14. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Great build Peter!! Now if we can just find a laser cutting shop in the states that doesn't want an arm and a leg that will be great !!

    Keep up the good work !!
     
  15. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Yeah I replied to Dave on one of my Google Plus posts, that I think I figured out how I'll be able to afford early retirement: Buy a laser and a CNC bender in the states, sit back, watch the money roll in.... Wait 5 years, retire!

    You are really getting ripped off! We need to hunt down a cheap guy and give him all the business! Or better, fight together!

    Anyway, renders of the PCB before sending off. I added all the donations on the silkscreen :)

    Rear.PNG front.PNG

     
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  16. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    The shop did inquire as to what the project status was- I have sent a reply that suggested that I was astounded by the quote as my expectation was ~$150. They are not someplace that I know from local direct contact but I had read their marketing materials -that they would welcome prototype and small jobs. So i figured to give them a try. They may not have the type of volume that's required to get this where we would like.

    I will try a local option that we have used for small jobs through my day job and see if I can get anything better.

    Matt
     
  17. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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  18. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Looking forward to hearing what the local guys charge.

    I've learned one thing over the past few years, when you see the word "prototype" in a shop name/slogan - think $$$$

    Shops like pcbpool.com ($203 for 1 PCB vs $25 for 10xPCBS at DirtyPCB.com) and http://www.protocase.com/ (before I realised I could make cases at metal shops) are also good examples of avoiding "prototype" manufacturers.





     
  19. Mordecaix89

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    Wow, that seems like a pretty good deal. Where are you sourcing the chips from?
     
  20. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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  21. Kyo

    Kyo Veteran
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    Ouch, I contacted my local Laser cutter ( Laserfab ) to see what they could do for those who wanted to build. They said they do not do aluminum here at this office. But could at another location ( 100 miles or so away ) quote come in at $1,785.62 if I pick up.

    I hope someone finds a cheaper option. Looks to be a very use full build.

    [​IMG]
     
    #81 Kyo, Mar 13, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2015
  22. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Holy mother! Thats a new level of ripoff!
     
  23. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Wow !! I'm here in the states, looks like I need a waterjet and lasercutter then charge half of what these folks want. I'd be covered up in work... I tried to get my plate set waterjet cut, for 6 plates they want almost $700.00, i'll pass.....
     
  24. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Definately looks like thats a solid plan.

    I have been thinking rather seriously about this the last few weeks. Maybe we should add up a few designs (ox plate sets, freeburn frames, i3 frames, general purpose sets like stepper motor mounts, servo mounts, robot chassis, etc) onto a Kickstarter as rewards, and price it out so we can buy a Trulaser 3020 and have it installed at OpenBuilds? Mark is no stranger to kickstarters... And unlike Brooke from Printrbot that just ignores any requests on his machines (which he is entitled to, but saying "no" rather than ignoring me would leave a better taste) I know Mark will ensure the machines run to provide a service to Makers!
     
  25. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Emailed a few companies, I googled for lasercut + bend in the US ... Hold thumbs

    quote requests.PNG

    Hit me up if you'd like me to forward the email to you, so you can forward it out to a few shops around you without having to retype...
     
  26. openhardwarecoza

    openhardwarecoza Journeyman
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    Out of interest sake - send me the DXF, I'll get pricing from my guys?
     
  27. Nick W

    Nick W Well-Known
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    I have used www.bigbluesaw.com before and had good results. The stuff they cut for me was not as complex as this project but the prices were reasonable. I'm not sure if they would do the bending though. I'm guessing that is where a lot of the cost is.

    -nick
     
  28. D Stevens

    D Stevens New
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    If you can get them cut and bent for that price you should get a bunch cut and ship them over. A couple of reasons why it's not going to be anywhere near that price to fab them in the US in small batch...

    First, cost of living in ZA is about half of what it is here on average and far less than the major metropolitan areas. That impacts everything from wages to materials. For this kind of work wages are about 3 times what they are in ZA. by comparing the pricing you get at home it's creating unrealistic expectations that aren't grounded in the reality of working in this market. It's not about getting "ripped off", it's what it costs to do this over here. This would be something that would more likely be produced in Mexico or China rather than the US.

    I opened the file but didn't path it. There is probably US$80-100 in materials, retail cost. That's for quality, US milled and sourced 5052-H32 .063 A small batch job shop is likely going to charge you US$150 in just materials. That's how it is...

    The file isn't nested and ready to cut so there will likely be some sort of charge for that. Some places charge flat or by the hour or have it built into the pricing structure.

    Over here, someone is going to be lucky if they can get a quality shop to fab these parts for US$500 and likely closer to a grand for a one off set, not near your target of US$150-250 for cut and bent parts. You would likely do better if you got a bunch of people together to have 10 or 20 of them made at the same time.

    In the meantime I'll send it out to a couple of places and see what they say. I think designing the chassis as more DIY than DFM would go a long way toward helping those build the machine on a budget though I do like the current chassis design. It gives the machine a sleek, non DIY look.
     
  29. Hytech2k

    Hytech2k Veteran
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    Peter

    Has anyone explored what the shipping would be from the shop you use to here in the states? It seems even if the shipping were say $150.00 per unit and $160,00 to cut, bend and cost of materials it would be much more affordable to just have it shipped here... Even if the shipping was 300 it still beats the cost of having them manufactured here in the state by a long shot.... Let me know the dimensions and weight and if you don't mind a shipping address of the shop you used, i'm going to speak with my contact at Fedex and see what I can get it shipped for. US companies need to step out of the 1900's and realize with the internet, email, and international shippers, we now live in a global marketplace. Just because your based in the states doesn't mean the market will bear ridiculous prices for services and products.
     
  30. D Stevens

    D Stevens New
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    The Internet, email and international shipping have been around for 20 plus years and don't make the cost of materials and labor less expensive. My cost for material and cycle time is over US$$300 to cut and bend the parts. That's not counting any markup, labor or overhead. The consumable cost just to use the waterjet is about US.50 a minute for abrasives and water. My rental cost on that machine is closer to US$2 a minute. Going rate in the area is about US$3 a minute. You will find similar costs in Canada and western Europe as well.

    The issue is that the design as good as it is, isn't condusive to a DIY build as it requires machines not available to DIY builders. One way to mitigate that is to use steel and have it plasma cut. Using 22 ga steel retail cost is between US$40-60 and the plasma is likely the minimum for most shops. Around US$100 is common. That's around a couple hundred in cutting though you probably won't meet a shop minimum for bending, which could be another minimum fee.

    For freight don't use FedEx or UPS. Use a bulk freight forwarder. My FedEx account wouldn't return a price, only a sizing error and said to call them. I used 40 x 20 x 6 and 20 lbs as the weight. Using my UPS account, with a 20% discount, Worldwide Expidited to Las Vegas is US$662.69 and takes about a week. The package is larger than it is heavy so you'll be charged dimensional weights meaning that you are paying for 52 lbs because the size of the package is larger than what would normally be the wieght of something that big. That means you could ship 2 or 3 in that same box and pay roughly the same minus any extra value charges and customs. If you get 3 in the box you are at about US$230 each plus customs. That brings it to about US$380, probably closer to US$400.
     

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