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LCD Based SLA Resin Printer

Discussion in '3D printers' started by evilc66, May 3, 2016.

  1. WirelessguyNY

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    Nano,

    I wish you good luck in your search. I will point out for starters though that the X/Y resolution of your print depends on the Pixels Per Inch of your screen. Do not be fooled by @k, 4K, 8K, markings when it comes to large screens. Today the best possible screens are small smartphone or iPad screens. You would likely be best off watching for upcoming VR displays which share a common need with us looking at LCDs.

    Every time I come across a a new screen I ask two questions
    #1 IS there a matching Display Driver board we can source and
    #2 What's the PPI? You can plug the info in here: DPI love ♥ Easily find the DPI/PPI of any screen

    Keep us posted on your progress. :)


     
  2. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    The first thing you have to decide on is how fine the detail needs to be in your prints. With a 50" 4K screen, you have 88 DPI, which gets you X/Y resolution of about 0.288mm. That puts you into similar resolution to a good FDM printer with a 0.2mm nozzle. Moving up to an 8K screen ($$$$$$) puts you at 176 DPI, and an X/Y resolution of 0.144mm. Better, but with the screens that we are looking to use (much smaller print area of course), we are at about 0.09mm X/Y resolution. Shrink the print area even more, and you can get even more detail out of a DLP setup (0.05mm or slightly better).

    If you need huge print area and high resolution, then you may actually want to think about using a laser on an XY stage (think of a laser cutter turned upside down). Your resolution is limited by the precision of the movement stage, regardless of the print area. This setup will be much slower than an SLA approach though. You don't need a super high power laser for this kind of setup, but the higher the power the faster you can move. The optics for the laser will also have to be quite good, as that will define the spot size that will cure the resin.
     
  3. WirelessguyNY

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    Now tell him about the Sharp 5.5" screen with 500+ ppi or the Sony Z5 Premium with over 800ppi

    IMO larger screens just add more complexity and uncertainty today. We are not yet in a soace where working solutions are easily acheivable. The light source along for a TV sized display would cost a fortune.

    I've stated before that my goal would be about an 8inch build volume with a PPI north of 230 or so to be worthwhile. Your mileage may vary. :)
     
  4. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    evilc66, did you already try the 15.6" screen?

    Got some daylight resin today in the color grey(it's more beige?). Tried it on a macbook pro mid-2015 retina display. It took about 2 minutes for the blobs of ~0.2mm before it started to cure a little bit. Brightness is 300cd/m2 900:1 contrast so pretty comparable.

    I found a 400 nits panel in the same size(so it's 30% brighter) but I'm not sure what kind of brightness is needed for decent cure times.
     
    #214 fantasy2, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  5. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I haven't done much with it other than power it up and make sure it works (that took a while). My garage and my free time have been consumed by house remodeling, so I haven't had much time to do anything with it. I did get the resins in the other day (one from Photocentric3D and G+ from Makerjuice). I was hoping that getting those in would give me a shove to get started, but, the best laid plans of mice and men....
     
  6. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    I know the feeling :)

    I wanted to buy this LCD, but I'm a bit hesitant to do so after the results with the macbook pro LCD.
    Have you inspected the back of the LCD? I cannot find any detailed pictures but I'm wondering how difficult it would be to remove the aluminium backing, replace the LED-Strip with a high power royal-blue LED-Strip and then place it all back together.
     
  7. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    The Sharp panel that I have has no aluminum backing. There is a frame around the perimeter, but that's it. This one should be much easier to get into than the iPad retina screens. Once you get to that point though, why not just back light it with a big array rather than messing with the edge lighting setup? The LEDs for that are much harder to source, and milliwatt for milliwatt of output, are more expensive than a good 3W LED.

    Which resin were you testing?
     
  8. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    So, the frame shouldn't be too hard to remove? Nice! Looking at the picture below I assumed an aluminum foil that's being hold together with the black(metal?) frame.

    I wanted to make a very thin bottom. Adding an array of LED's for the full 15.6" you either need a large array of LED's or place it at a large distance and use frensnel lenses and diffusion foil. I really liked the idea to have everything compact like the photocentric LC10.

    I can imagine that 3Watt(arbitrary number, don't know the real values) of royal-blue side-lit LED's is much more effective than 3Watt of white side-lit LED's.

    The resin I tested is photocentric daylight hard grey.

    [​IMG]
     
    #218 fantasy2, Feb 14, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
  9. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Going with the bottom up array of LEDs will allow you to run at much higher energy levels than you would for even a blue backlight. You also have a larger assortment of LED wavelengths. One of the things I'm still in the process of testing is to have the backlight at a shorter wavelength. The shorter we can get the wavelength, the more likely we can use UV cure resins like G+ or similar.

    As for the frame, the LCD would most likely still come through the front of the housing. With such a narrow frame though, it's possible that you can remove the back scatter film (the white film in that picture) with very little effort. That will make using these LCDs with high output backlights a far simpler experience than with the iPad screens.
     
  10. nano

    nano New
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    @WirelessguyNY @evilc66

    Thanks for aclaration, really now i see that this project with 50" will be not good, the xy resolution will be very poor, 0.288 are practically 0.3mm :(

    On the past i was thinking about the laser solution, but i have a laser here and when we need engraving anything it takes a lot of time, need anything faster...

    Think that i need will with anything smaller and try all first, this project is Too complicated for my low knowledge in the matter and I must learn a lot..

    I have many answers, first how can calculate the xy final resolution from DPI? finally i found this one DPI Calculator / PPI Calculator, fantastic for me:)

    Now, need know exactly what will be need, thinking on about the size, from 20 to 24" 4K will be from 0.115 to 0.1384mm rresolution on xy, suficient for me.....:thumbsup:

    The first problem is looking for the best option, monitor or tv, would like control it directly from a pc, tv have usb or hdmi, will be easy to control it directly form my laptop?

    As @fantasy2 would like Adding an array of LED's , the resin to use will be form photocentric daylight.

    Give me your opinion:nailbite::nailbite:

    Thanks for all friends

    nano
     
  11. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    I understood that UV light in time breaks down the LCD. Also, the color filters in the LCD panel are optimized for a certain spectrum of light.

    See below illustration:
    [​IMG]

    The peak transmission wavelength is around 450nm, 525nm and >600nm. If you use 405nm(optimal for UV resin), 60% of the light is blocked by the blue filter.
    If you use 450nm LED's(royal blue), above 90% is transmitted. A little goes through the green filter as well. Of course, this panel is RGBW, increasing the efficiency a bit, but still you would have 2 pixels for 450nm transmitting light vs 1 pixel.

    So it still makes much more sense to work with daylight resin, even if you go for a LED-array behind the LCD to decrease the cure time. 1.5Watt of side-lit royal blue would be as efficient as 3Watt of UV(with the chance of a short lifespan for the LCD). The phosphor layer in the white side-lit LED's filters the needed wavelength making it pseudo full-spectrum... Losing a lot of efficiency as well.

    I'm still really curious to make my own LED-strip out of royal blue LED's. They're not hard to source and making a PCB that fit's is not that difficult.
     
  12. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    Make an accurate XY stage and put a nano-DLP or LED projector on it. This way you can scan the full surface by moving the projector around :)
     
  13. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    I did some calculations today on using a separate backlight panel.

    If you go for 450nm standard SMD LED's, you get >4000 cd/m2 in a diameter of 300mm(about the size of the panel). This is 256 LED's spaced 19mm apart and at a 90mm distance from the LCD. What goes through will be a little bit more than 2/3th(white, blue and little bit of green and red pixel).

    If you want the same intensity with UV 405nm, you need 70% more LED's to get the same intensity(only the white pixel and ~30% of blue will let it through the filter). This will increase the heat generation a lot.

    So taking 4000 cd/m2, 30% passthrough is 1200 cd/m2 = 1200 lumen/m2. That's still quite a lot more than the LCD side-lit, but not much compared to a DLP beamer. Suppose you have a beamer of 1500 lumen on a print surface of 100x100mm this would translate to 150,000 lumen/m2.. No where comparable. A pico DLP is somewhere around 100 lumen but that's still 10k lumen/m2.


    If we can assume curing time works linear and the LC10 from photocentric3D uses the ipad screen at 400cd/m2 with a cure time of 8 seconds per layer, this would mean that using the 450nm array you need 0.8 seconds to cure, quite acceptable!
     
    #223 fantasy2, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  14. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    It's certainly doable. It's a little risky though, with the LCD being large and thin there is a decent risk for cracking the screen and making it useless. It's more so for the 4k screens (the Sharp one I have is really thin) than the iPads, but there is still a risk.

    The more I think about this, the more it seems I'm going to make two machines: one iPad based and one 15.6" 4K based. The iPad screens are so cheap, I don't mind if wreck a few to get it right. Things can be perfected with that screen, and then I can work on tweaking the 4K once it's up and running. Good thing these screens are readily available.
     
  15. fantasy2

    fantasy2 New
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    It does sound doable with these numbers. :)
    If you have plenty of light available, I'm thinking about adding a 4mm glass sheet behind the LCD panel so it will be much less fragile and you can make a very nice solid frame with it so you won't damage the LCD when placing the tray with resin on top of it.
     
  16. nano

    nano New
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    The glass think is a good idea, but what about a good refrigeration?? If we put a couple of good fans, would help to cool the heat produced by the LEDs, could it work?
     
  17. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Cooling wouldn't be needed if you are just replacing the stock LEDs with blue ones. The amount of power consumed isn't changing, so the heat level won't change either. Cooling is only required when you start to use large high power arrays of LEDs for a "shine through" style backlight.
     
  18. nano

    nano New
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    @ evilc66, i see on the net a 3d printer named slash, here are the tecnical especifications....

    SLASH
    Printing
    Printing Technology
    LCD Stereolithography
    Separation Mechanism
    Natural peel with special engineered polymer film
    Up to 100x more durable than PDMS
    Build Volume
    192 × 122 × 200mm
    7.5" × 4.8" × 7.8"
    XY Resolution
    75µm, WQXGA [2560 × 1600]
    Layer Thickness (Z resolution)
    10, 25, 50, 100, 200, 300 microns
    Variable and customizable
    Supporting
    Uniz Smart support technology
    Automatically generated
    Manual add, adjust and remove
    Printing Speed
    1000 cc/hr (50% infill solid structures)
    Up to 200mm/hr (hollow and thin-wall structures)
    Resin Level Control
    Automatic level control on bottle and resin tank
    Unattended printing possible
    Auto pause when resin runs out
    One-Click Printing
    Yes
    Hardware
    Dimension
    350 × 400 × 530mm [W×H×D]
    14" × 16" × 21"
    Weight
    12KG/26LB
    Operating Temperature
    Suggested 18-28°C
    Suggested 64-82°F
    Power Requirement
    100-240VAC
    12A 50/60Hz
    240W
    Optical System
    5000 Lux blue LED array
    Refractive index matched liquid cooling
    Ultra high resolution LCD
    Chassis
    Injection molded, fully enclosed
    Connectivity
    USB, Wifi
    Package Weight
    14KG/31LB
    Packaging Dimension
    400 × 500 × 600mm [W×H×D]
    16" × 20" × 24"
    Materials
    Packaging
    500mL bottle
    zABS Resin
    ABS like, varies colors available
    Desktop Software
    System Requirement
    Windows 7 and up
    Mac OS X 10.8 and up
    OpenGL 2.1
    2GB RAM
    Features
    Simple print setup, easy multi-printer management
    Z resolution profile customization from 10 to 300µm
    Auto-generation of supportrs
    Manual add, adjust, and removal of supportrs
    Rotation, scaling and duplication
    Compatible Format
    .STL, .OBJ, .UNIZ
    Mobile Apps
    Compatible Systems
    iPhone
    iPad
    Android phone
    Features
    Pre-validated online model store
    One-click printing
    On-the-go print monitoring and management
    In-App purchases
     
  19. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I've seen that one around before, and a coworker has one on preorder (not sure when he will be getting his). The print area is pretty generous and the resolution is good. $2K certainly doesn't make it an impulse purchase, but I feel it's a decent price for what they are offering. The $999 Kickstarter earlybird price was a really good deal.
     
  20. nano

    nano New
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    Take atention on this one:

    Optical System
    5000 Lux blue LED array
    Refractive index matched liquid cooling

    Build Volume
    192 × 122 × 200mm
    7.5" × 4.8" × 7.8"
    XY Resolution
    75µm, WQXGA [2560 × 1600]

    Perhaps this could help us, dont know exactly the LCD installed on the printer, but they are selling it for 190~$
     
  21. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    It's quite possible that it's the LCD from the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9". All the numbers fit. What's really nice about this display is that its about 500nits brightness, which is way more than most LCDs.

    After a bit of digging, it looks like the Kindle Fire HDX 8.9" uses a JDI TFTMD089030 LCD. They seem to be readily available, but I think it uses a MIPI interface rather than LVDS or eDP. Trying to track down an adapter board.

    While trying to track down that adapter board, I did happen to find a number of kits on Aliexpress that had 5.5" 2K screens (2560x1440) and HDMI adapters. That would get you 48 micron resolution ;)

    Shop mipi hdmi online Gallery - Buy mipi hdmi for unbeatable low prices on AliExpress.com
     
  22. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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  23. Redmayne

    Redmayne New
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    So these from Ali would work without modification? Place under flexvat type and it will cure resin properly? The longer I've watched these threads for the last year the more I've wanted to dive in.
     
  24. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Any LCD will cure daylight curable resins, so yes, these can be used without modification. The use of more readily available UV cure resins would require modification to use.

    The LCD from the Fire HDX would work quite nicely. It's brighter than the iPad retina screens and a little higher resolution for an increase in print details for the same print area. The big advantage to using the iPad screen though is that they are very easy to get, unlike the Fire HDX screen. I have yet to find a place that will sell the screen only (no touch interface)
     
  25. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    @nano, you are a bad influence :p. I apparently can't leave well enough alone, and certainly can't finish what I started before getting side tracked onto something else. I ordered the Fire HDX LCD kit and the 5.5" 2560x1440 kit today. I may replace the iPad screen with the HDX screen seeing as I get 20% better resolution for the same area, but it does look like I will be expanding the family to three machines
    • Small - 5.5" LCD, 2560x1440, 0.047mm X/Y, approx 120x68mm print area
    • Medium - 8.9" LCD, 2560x1600 (HDX), 0.075mm X/Y or 2048x1536 (iPad 3/4), 0.096mm X/Y, approx 196x147mm print area
    • Large - 15.6" LCD, 3840x2160 (4K), 0.09mm X/Y, approx. 344x193mm print area
     
  26. nano

    nano New
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    @ evilc66 Like I said, I do not have much idea of all this type of systems, but to stubborn one nobody gains me:mad::mad:, jajajjaja

    Me spends trying to find and looking for the best systems....

    Now is your time, try to find any similar for my project, around 24" ;);)
     
  27. nano

    nano New
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    Now, i need start with mine, as i need anything big, if i cant give more xy space will want more on z axis, i will need help and info about stepers and screw, if i supose a z axis around 50cm, perhaps a max weigth of piece around 20kg, and a good possible resolution, from 0.04to 0.1 configurable.

    Culd give me any help here???
     
  28. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    If you had to lift that much weight, I think I would resort to using either SBR12 or SBR16 supported rails (ground cylindrical rods with mounting base), 12mm diameter minimum, or Hiwin style linear rails (better than SBR, but more expensive), and a ball screw to move it all. I think that much weight on a C-Beam might cause too much deflection and binding, which will wreck the accuracy of your prints.

    On the other hand, 20kg is a lot of weight for a 3D print. Just using the density of Makerjuice G+ (the datasheet is conveniently available), 20kg would produce 22,000cm^3 of print volume, or a solid cube 28cm on each side.
     
  29. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I'm sure there are other options, but an LG 24UD58-B is 24" diagonal at 4K for $299 here in the US.
     
  30. Mysta

    Mysta New
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    So, have you printed anything with this yet? Not sure what you got the HDX screen for but the screen vat and build area are on slash3d's sites.
     

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