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1.5KW Spindle on WorkBee

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by Eli Endres, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. Eli Endres

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    I'm considering a 1.5KW, watercooled spindle for my WorkBee build. Is anyone running this setup? I really want a larger collet but I'm worried about weight.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Matt38

    Matt38 New
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    I had a 80mm Haunyang watercooled spindle for a router table I built, I cant remember the power, but it was too heavy for my workbee 1010. I'm actually here trying to find out if a 7.1lbs 65mm 800w water cooled version is too heavy as well.
     
  3. Eli Endres

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    What indicated it was too heavy? And how heavy was it?
     
  4. Matt38

    Matt38 New
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    It had zero issues moving Down in Z but couldn't move up. I just looked at it and it's a 1.5kw 100v, 80mm if that helps. Its 4.4kg, or 9.7lbs
     
  5. Eli Endres

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    I have high torque motors so I think it can handle the weight. I'm mostly concerned with twist/sag in the gantry.

    I did some analysis at work and with a 10 pound spindle my X axis should only sag .0008", which I think is acceptable lol.
     
  6. Matt38

    Matt38 New
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    I didn't do much dialing in when I mounted it. I noticed it didnt move in Z and called it quits. I have NEMA 23s if that helps.
     
  7. sharmstr

    sharmstr OpenBuilds Team
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    Its not just 10 lbs. You need to add the weight of the plates, motor, wheels, screws, spacers, lead screw, etc. The 10lb spindle is probably dry weight as well.
     
  8. Eli Endres

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    Fair point, but the aluminum plates and everything are much closer to the gantry and the lion's share of the deflection was twist. So they're are contributing to the twist a lot less than the spindle.
     
  9. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    One way to think about this is. Why a VFD?
    The why nots, there are plenty... But Why?

    - Its more complicated
    - Its not widely tested with this system
    - Its not really more quiet (Motor noise disappears in the background once the bit starts chipping)

    The only real Pro's are
    - different sized collets (but its not like you can use 1/2" tooling on an extrusion machine anyway, and all the other endmills I've needed where available in 1/4 and 1/8" shanks)
    - low RPM (for cutting plastics) (about the only real reason)

    As is the setups are extremely well tested with Trim Routers. Yet to find a Job I couldnt do with the router
     
  10. Eli Endres

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    I want to make 1-3/4 deep cuts hardwood and I'm worried about being limited by 1/4" tools. I was hoping to use 3/8".

    What router would you recommend?
     
  11. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    With that kind of depth-of-cut you are going to suffer more from frame flex... No matter what router you have.

    A router alone isnt the key, you need ALL the components to match the level of beefiness you intend pushing. With a stock frame, DWP611P with sane cutting recipes :), multiple smaller passes, etc

    Consider this: Before you stick a huge router bit on a CNC, run it handheld in a plunge router (; see if YOU still feel safe. You'll probably take multiple much smaller passes increasing depth when you are going by hand... as you can "feel" the side forces and "feel" how its yanking the router out of your hands. On a machine that "disconnect" makes people push things to crazy limits
     
    #11 Peter Van Der Walt, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  12. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Also, consider approaching your problem in software instead... 1/4 tooling still has less side force than big tools... So look at Trochoidal recipes
     
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  13. Alex Chambers

    Alex Chambers Openbuilds team
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    As long as you are not putting too much sideways strain on your bit the limiting factor is the length of the cutting edge (1-3/4" is a long bit). However, you need to anticipate the whole toolpath - I broke a 3mm router bit yesterday cutting a profile with sloping sides - as Z moved down the side of the bit was engaging more of the workpiece on the waste side (thought the bit would cope - was wrong :()
    Alex.
     
  14. Eli Endres

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    I've done all these operations with a hand router. Yes I take multiple passes. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I have no intention of making of taking 1-3/8" in one or even two passes. Usually I keep it under 1/4" DoC for each pass when I'm working by hand.

    I'm mostly worried about tear out/chatter as I near that 1-3/8" depth with a 1/4" dia cutter. I will be using this to cut the profile of the guitar.
     
  15. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Cool, Trochoidal is still the thing you want to learn more about. As it doesnt Slot it doesnt really chip out.
     
  16. Eli Endres

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    Do you think I'll be OK with a 1/4" cutter at that depth? Particularly I'm concerned with cutting the outside profile. That will be a channel cut. I plan on only cutting most of the depth of the body so I'll never break through.

    Also, can you send some good resources on trochoidal cutting?
     
  17. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Trochoidal is also called Adaptive (in Fusion) or HSM (many other Cams): Intro to Trochoidal Milling - In The Loupe

    I'd suggest a small scale test cut, and keep things conservative

    Agreed on "most of the way through", on really deep stuff I cut about 15-20mm down, take it off, rough cut the rest with the bandsaw, and finish up with a flush trim router bit with the bearing running on the nice CNC cut edge. I dont use my CNC to replace my traditional tools, I supplement :) - good hack to save a lot of time on profile cuts
     
  18. Matt38

    Matt38 New
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    Do you think the 7lbs dry weight would be too much for a workbee 1010? I really enjoyed having a spindle motor over a router for my router table.
     
  19. Matt38

    Matt38 New
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    I had a loose flexable coupling, a is moving normally now. So it doesn't appear to be too heavy, though its dry for now. I'm going to set up, square and Tram today.
     

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  20. Stan Howe

    Stan Howe New
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    I too plan to use a 1.5KW spindle on my Workbee 1010, and am worried about the weight. I don't care that its more complicated , I like the challenge . It also has the benefit of better speed control direct from Mach 3, higher RPM than many routers, better (and usually more) bearings, no brushes to wear out, the water cooled version won't blow dust all over the place, and it is designed to run many hours at a time. I plan to try stengthing the gantry by placing two 1/4" threaded rod inside the extrusion to sandwich it all together. I then plan to balance the weight of the spindle on the back side. I weighed all the components and the offset from the center of the wheels, then did the same using the supplied router mount on the back. Due to the spindle being ~5.1/2" from center the 9# spindle plus brackets etc. will require 20-1/2 lbs of weight at the 3.5" on center router mount. This makes for a lot of weight on the gantry but i'll try it, re-design if needed. I'm also considering upgrading to lineal rails as others have done if this does not work.
     
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  21. Stan Howe

    Stan Howe New
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    Oh, yeah, and the 425 in/oz stepper online stepper motors I have shouldn't have a problem with it (I hope)
     
  22. Kevon Ritter

    Kevon Ritter Veteran
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    The one thing that @Peter Van Der Walt has been trying to point out is that these frames just can't handle what the larger spindles are capable of. Routers are well suited to these OB machines as that's about all the SYSTEM can handle. If you absolutely need a VFD spindle, an 800W would pretty much be the only matched option. The only benefit to the larger spindles is the collet size, which isn't really a benefit if you can't use anything larger than a 1/4" end mill effectively.

    There are a few machines on these boards with larger spindles. Most of them aren't built a bit more rugged than the readily available kits. Some have nothing in common, other than some extrusion, and are built to a completely different level. They can take advantage of the extra collet size and can handle the extra mass without any detrimental effects.
     
  23. Christian James

    Christian James Journeyman
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    If someone gave me a golf club weighing 50 lbs, I would probably tear my back to shreds. Same with an overly powerful spindle on a Workbee - the spindle won't give up on a deep harsh cut, the gantry would though - something has to give!

    These machines are designed for a certain power to strength/weight ratio - exceeding that will cause undue stress on the structure. The spindle parameters would need to be severely limited for the rest of the machine to handle it, so what is the point of having it - it would be running inefficiently. All the parts that make up the machine design have to work in harmony and in balance so the spindle should match that for best performance. Big spindles belong on bigger and stronger machines where they can achieve maximum power and efficiency..
     
  24. Peter Van Der Walt

    Peter Van Der Walt OpenBuilds Team
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    Well Phrased gents, better than I could articulate.

    Exactly on point!
     
  25. DFRoss

    DFRoss New
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    I'm still new to the CNC world but have been running an 800w aircooled spindle on an XL C-Beam and it has plenty of power for the wood-only routing I do. The noise seems much less than a router alternative for me.

    Not advocating router or spindle for anyone - personal choice - just throwing out that an 800w aircooled spindle is working just great for the wood routing I've been doing. No regrets.
     
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  26. Christian James

    Christian James Journeyman
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    Nothing wrong with that - similar power to the 611
     
  27. rikkkk

    rikkkk New
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    Hey! Why build a cnc machine? It is complicated and there will be lots of error while you learn! Don't do it!!! =) =)

    If you want larger collets there are options. I'm in a similar situation. Need tools that are only available in +12mm shanks. Take a look at 0.73 kW | ER20 HF-Motor Teknomotor 18.000 U/min | 230V/380V for example.

    Cheers
     
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  28. Delbarco

    Delbarco New
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    Very interesting guys! :)
    My experience: I bought a WB1510 to build some guitars, now I have realized my error. Anyway I'm also interested on upgrading the WB.
    Routers: I burnt two Makitas and probably one Mafell (or at least broke the bearings). Makita will overheat and burn if you work continuously for more than 15 minutes in weeks... And all of this just trying to plane the huge spoilboard of 1000x1500. My fault was using too wide endmills in order to reduce the milling time. Lesson learnt.
    Dewalts... not my cup of tea. Too much rpms prevent working fine too many materials.

    If you are into anything more than carving a few milimeters for a fancy signal or hobbylike, or if you need to spend 45 minutes of continuous work because of your designs... you better avoid routers. You will need a spindle, or you'll need to double your work time to allow the router to cool down after taking smaller passes.
    Then as Peter Van Der Walt and these experimented guys say, you need another frame or stiffen up your machine, since people like Ryan form Ooznest insist on not using a spindle heavier than 3 kg.

    Maybe we could stiffen the X axis someway, even shorten it in my case (I don't need so much width), add a high torque Nema on Z, and try a spindle between 800w and 1500w, and as close as 3kg as possible. Not sure if water cooled is prohibitive as it increase the weight compared to air cooled, although it will allow you longer periods of work.

    You are not alone buddy! Lots of people like us have chosen the cheap way (workbee and similar bundles) which is becoming not so cheap. On the other hand each failure makes you wiser.

    Thank you all for your comments, especially to Peter Van Der Walt and Alex Chambers.
     
  29. Giarc

    Giarc OpenBuilds Team
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    Weird. My Makita has lasted me almost 5 years now.
     
  30. Christian James

    Christian James Journeyman
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    If 3 routers have burnt out then they've obviously been overloaded - heavy loads means more current through the windings, more heat generated and eventual damage to the router. It's all about getting the chip load, feed rate and RPM correct for the material being machined. For spoil-board surfacing, a 3/4" 2 flute surfacing bit will work perfectly fine. Cut up to 1mm depth per pass - pointless going deeper and removing too much, we need to keep the spoil-board as thick as possible after all. My Makita does everything I ask of it and jobs are completed quick enough too simply by setting the parameters for everything to work at maximum efficiency.
     

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