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The Frog CNC Router

Discussion in 'CNC Mills/Routers' started by Neil Rosenberg, Jan 3, 2014.

  1. Alexpb26

    Alexpb26 New
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    Good stuff!
    I am considering linux cnc, but I would prefer to run on windows.

    Do you have any idea how they compare ? Linux cnc and mach3?

    Thanks
     
  2. Tweakie

    Tweakie OpenBuilds Team
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    In my view they each perform as well as each other.

    Of course, those using LinuxCNC will say that it is better than Mach3 and those using Mach3 will say that it is better than LinuxCNC so perhaps you should try both then see which you prefer.


    Tweakie.
     
  3. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    I have a dual-boot with winXP/mach3 and Ubuntu/Linuxcnc. I used windows/mach3 one time to test my parallel port and then never again.

    One major difference is that LinuxCNC distro is a real-time operating system and winXP isn't. Another difference is that all the time and energy you put into learning linuxCNC will pay off because you keep using your knowledge even though you can upgrade for the rest of your life. All the files maintain compatibility, etc. With XP/mach3 you are at the whim of the developers. They might completely change the UI every year. The new mach3 might not run on XP so you'll have to buy win8(and get a whole new machine to run it), stuff like that.

    XP has a Microsoft and NSA backdoor. Pirated mach3 copies have anybody's backdoor. It cracks me up when all these people invent really cool stuff and then can't figure out how an exact copy ended up on ebay from a Chinese supplier...
     
  4. Tweakie

    Tweakie OpenBuilds Team
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    Just to throw in a couple of facts…

    1) All Mach3 versions (current and future) can be run under Windows XP.

    2) Mach4 (yet to be released) can be run under Windows XP.


    Tweakie.
     
  5. Alexpb26

    Alexpb26 New
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    Yep.

    I do not need a 180 mm cutting length, but I can get a tool with 180 or more. I am making surfboards, so I am just wanting to
    What I want is to place a block of EPS that has more or less that height, a cutting length of 35 mm is enough.
    I was also considering using a grinder with a custom build disc cutter, to remove more material in one go.

    http://www.bornemann-mb.de/images/pdf/Cylindrical_shank_cutter_Basic-Cut.pdf

    I have used this German brand, spindles, hollow and non hollow cutters, and best of all the vacuum system. Best I have ever seen for EPS or PU!
     

    Attached Files:

    Mark Carew likes this.
  6. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    Also XP is end-of-life in a few weeks. No more updates from Microsoft.
     
  7. Tweakie

    Tweakie OpenBuilds Team
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    No it doesn't reach it's "end-of-life" it reaches the end of it's Microsoft support which is not such a bad thing as once we have a reliably working CNC control system installing OS software updates, just for the sake of installing updates, is counter productive.

    Tweakie.
     
    #97 Tweakie, Mar 14, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  8. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    Dude, windows is dead. Accept it. Maybe get some grief counselling. o_O. Maybe one day they'll have retro XP devices like those Atari emulators. Look on the bright side, you can upgrade to windows vista for only $199.99 haha
     
  9. Tweakie

    Tweakie OpenBuilds Team
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    Fortunately, for the rest of us, Microsoft Windows is only dead in your opinion.

    Tweakie.
     
    JustinTime likes this.
  10. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
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    Actually, it should be considered dead. All those updates exist for security reasons and henceforth microsoft will no longer be attempting to keep it safe. This is okay on a standalone system but any system plugged into the net will rapidly become dangerous.

    ...But we digress. Let's take the thread back to its original purpose.
     
  11. Mark Carew

    Mark Carew OpenBuilds Team
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    Variety is the spice of life and everyone has the right to choose. Let agree to disagree on 'who's the best' so like Rick suggest
    :thumbsup: Thanks boys
     
  12. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    So getting back to the thread, I may be making my own motor controller board based around the TB6560 using the parallel port and linuxcnc. If I succeed, I will put it up as an openbuild. It will definitely be able to power an OX since that's what I will use it for and so it will power a frog too. I'll probably incorporate many of the frog concepts into my OX to make a hybrid.

    So anyway, yeah that's my plan and it bypasses all the problems I had when I first started like finding a decent controller and software. It has a future. I'm guessing the boards will be around $50 which will bring the cost of CNC'ing down and get more people into it who will then contribute better designs to the community which will improve all of our machines.
     
    Robert Hummel and Mark Carew like this.
  13. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    Hi Alex and group. Glad to see this thread is continuing in my absence.

    Alex, a few comments:

    1. The dust removal has been very effective, but I'm still experimenting with different brush lengths and stiffnesses. I will report once I have more data.
    2. I agree, the spindle mount could improve, it's on my list of to-dos.
    3. Greater z-axis range probably means less stiffness at the extreme extension. It's a trade-off.
    4. I run Mach3 on Win7. Seems fine, but I'm leery of updates.
    5. I use a variety of tools, mostly solid carbide. All 1/4" shank.
    6. The belt and pinion has been a headache, pulleys shifting on motor shafts in spite of flats and loctite. Very small setscrews! I'm changing to 3mm pitch GT3 belts/pulleys now.
    7. I'm working with higher cut speeds now than what's in my earlier video. Typically 100ipm or so. Still playing with it.
    8. I set my tool height zero much the way Dude does. No auto change on this machine!

    I'll be back in town in a couple weeks, will roll up my sleeves then and get back to it.

    Regards
    Neil
     
    #103 Neil Rosenberg, Mar 15, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2014
  14. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    RE #2 I've found that a combination of the routy design which allows you to adjust the height of the gantry, plus mounting the spindle to v-slot, allows me to position both the gantry and the spindle. This is cool because you can reduce the torque when cutting short flat objects(like aluminum plate) and you can have extra clearance for cutting big blocks of softer material like wood.

    RE #6 Grind a flat spot onto the motor shaft. The pulley should never move. Perhaps the inner diameter of the pulley doesn't match the motor shaft?
     
    Colin Russon likes this.
  15. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    Thanks "Dude", I like the idea of an adaptable z-axis mount, perhaps in my next version...

    As regards the pulley shifting, I probably should have been more specific. I did flat the motor shafts -- the shifting I've seen is lateral, not rotational. When it moves far enough it forces the belt to rub against the side of the extrusion groove and wear badly. I'll try putting ordinary screws in (as was suggested) so I can tighten better.

    Pictures, we want pictures!
    Neil
     
  16. zach

    zach New
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    Neil,

    Where do you think the weakest, structurally, areas of your machine are.?You said you were seeing deflection at the drill bit. Can you see the extrusions moving or do they seem weak?.
    Also, can you place more pictures of your tables x-axis?

    Zach
     
  17. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    Another option is to use C-clips... you can use a hacksaw to cut a groove into the shaft while it's spinning and then throw a c-clip on it.
     
  18. The Dude

    The Dude Well-Known
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    This is the same for all v-slot builds, basically. So there's a little bending that happens in the aluminum Y gantry plates. There's a little flex in the delron wheels. There's a little flex in the extruded aluminum. It all adds up and if you have a very long z-axis, this tiny bending is actually a noticeable deflection in the router bit. On my routy I can just push on the end of the bit and see the deflection is about 1/8" with enough force. On a larger machine like a frog it may be 1/4" or more. If this is a problem for your application you need to reinforce all the parts I just mentioned. Use a double-v-slot on the z axis... Use 1/4" plates on the gantry rather than 1/8". Add more wheels.
     
  19. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    Zach -- I'm on the road for a while, not working on the machine just now. Will post as I find out what's up.

    "Dude" -- yeah, I need to do something like what you suggest. I may even drill a small recess into the shaft at one of the flats so the setscrew tip gets captured.
     
  20. sjd1

    sjd1 New
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    Any updates on the progress of this machine and the one Matt is building?
     
  21. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    HI all, been away but back now !

    I'm really happy to see the higher strength wheels, I plan to replace all of my delrin with polycarb, interested to see how much it improves system rigidity. I can say that visually it appears that a lot of the system flex is right at the wheels, so I'm hopeful for improvement.

    Will report as it goes...
     
  22. Ricardo da Rocha e Silva

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    Hello Neil!
    Congratulation on your built!
    I could open the files on solidworks.
    Do you have a parts list?
    Where did you find these polycarb wheels?
    I plan to start my own version soon.
    Ricardo
     
  23. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    The new wheels are available from the OpenBuilds store. I haven't ordered any yet, but plan to.

    Sorry I don't have a parts list, but I believe all of the custom parts are represented. Good luck!
     
  24. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    I have found that a LOT of the deflection is due to inadequate support of the long side rails. I'm adding additional angle brackets along the length, hopefully this will tighten things up a bit. I also changed out the belts for the heftier size, no data yet but seem fine. I had to recalculate the steps/inch due to different pulleys and belt dims.
     
  25. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    OK, now to get serious. Yes, the side rails are deflecting, but that is swamped by the HUGE amount of belt stretching. As I mentioned in the build info, I'm about to re-do the X and Y drives to use leadscrews rather than belts. Stay tuned...
     
  26. Paruk

    Paruk Journeyman
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    Try the double timing belt setup to solve the belt stretching problem.:)
     
  27. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    Thanks for the suggestion Paul. While I agree that a double belted drive will be twice as stiff, I want something even better than that.

    I'm now working on the lead-screw design, one axis at a time (y first). If that performs as I hope it will, I'll then update the two x-axis motors to match.

    Best
     
  28. Steve123

    Steve123 New
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    Neil you may already know this but you linked to single start Acme rod on McMaster-Carr site. You should consider using a 5 Start Acme rod. You must also use matching 5 start nuts when using 5 start rods. You will achieve much better performance using 5 start acme rods vs single start rods.

    http://www.mcmaster.com/#99030a704/=up2a5c
     
  29. Neil Rosenberg

    Neil Rosenberg Journeyman
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    <updated>Thanks Steve, and you're right of course! I've been waffling on this a bit, but have settled on 5-start parts (instead of 2-start) from the outset, as several of you kindly suggested. After re-running the numbers, it does seem pretty ideal for my motors etc. I'll post photos and observations as the project progresses.
     
    #119 Neil Rosenberg, Nov 21, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
  30. matt_o_70

    matt_o_70 New
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    After looking at GT3 or larger options and pricing everything out. I went to Ebay and decided that 5 start ball screws and ball nuts was how I was going to drive my CNC. As with everything - direct from china ended up reasonable (similar cost as ACME from USA) and I figured it was money well spent. I have been looking at the parts all summer but not had any time to myself to make any progress but snow is here so I should get things built over the winter.
     

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