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Discussion in '3D printers' started by Carl Feniak, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. Hellsbellsidaho

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    Will this use MatterControl with auto leveling?
     
  2. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    OK, I guess I didn't figure out what was new/old. I see about 4 versions. Can u tell me which is newest and why. I am trying not to have moving pieces hanging outside frame.
    I am also trying to do this with 2 screws on either side instead of 3. Any advice to that scheme?
    thx
     
    #272 ruggb, Feb 19, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
    Elmo Clarity likes this.
  3. Carl Feniak

    Carl Feniak Journeyman
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    Are you just trying to keep everything inside the frame for aesthetics or for ABS?
    I've thought about putting panels on mine that either cut around or use standoffs where it would interfere with moving parts. The C-Bot is a bad printer design to use if you are trying to keep every component inside the envelope of the frame as a lot of items such as the XY motors, XY bar wheel brace plates, & Z wheel brackets break that plane (newer Z bar assembly).

    There should be three options:
    1) Z Bar Ends <-- this is the original, cantilevered wheel assembly
    2) Z Bar Ends V2 for 20x40 <-- what I am using
    3) Z Bar Ends V2 for 20x60 <-- what NickM is using for his 12x12 bed

    For my 8x12 bed I am still quite happy with my Z setup.
    If I wanted to upgrade it there would be three things I could do:
    -move to a 20x60 back bar (not as helpful if your bed isn't cantilevered)
    -change my brackets to either aluminum or to thicker, more rigid plastic pieces
    -remove the flexible couplings from my Z drive system after getting really good alignment (not easy)
     
  4. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    well, maybe a pic is best. I have modeled this in sketchup in 5 versions. Now I have the idlers facing front, one Z motor, 2 and all motors in the rear - XY, Bowden motors, and the Z is near the back. I may have to use a counterweight! lol. I figure 2 wheels on each corner and the screws on each side would work but I am thinking about 3 screws as it would be more stable. Just not sure how much more. I guess I could figure something to allow some adjustment if needed. Probably only talking 1mm or so and I could do that on the platform X bars, but not easily. I think I have all axis giving approx 305mm but I am still working on the endstop locations before committing to the modifications. It doesn't change the amount of rails needed but might reduce the Z height if I cut 3 screws from a 1m screw. The footprint is about 530x530x570 if u include the motors hanging off the back. That reduces the width by about 40mm and increases the height by about 100mm to give me the approx. 12"x12"x12" build area. I may change my mind about the height if I go with 3 screws. I may opt to reduce it 100mm instead of buying more screws.
    Do u see any issues?
     

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  5. Carl Feniak

    Carl Feniak Journeyman
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    Z Axis:
    A couple people on here have expressed concerns with this type of a setup for wobble potential. In theory it will work, but everything would have to be perfectly aligned. Feel free to give it a go though, I'd be curious how it turns out.
    Drive wise, why not just drive both leadscrews with a separate nema 17 motor? All prusa and mendel style printers do this, not to mention my OB1.4 and C-Bot. Alternatively, why not drive one directly and link the other to it by putting these at the base of each lead screw: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2PCS-GT2-Pul...665?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19fb19ece9
    You will still need an idler to keep the belt tight, but it can offer a bit cleaner of a setup with high pulley tooth engagement.

    If you're set on a front back lead 2 screw setup then I'd go with my or NickM axis setup but move your leadscrews. For a 3 lead screw design I'd still go with my setup, bit put one driven directly in the back center and two belt synchronized at the front. This way the lead screws in the front still give easy bed access even of you are 10cm into a print. See AdamCook photos on page 9 of the discussion.
    Aside: the top 20x20 extrusion piece on my printer doesn't have to be right at the top. It can be drop 1/4, 1/3, or even 1/2 way down to give easier access tot he build plate without reducing much structural rigidity.

    Z Axis aside, looks good overall:
    -filament spool mount; are you planning a separate holder off the frame?
     
  6. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    thx for that Carl.
    1 of my ver has 2 motors. I have an extra 1 but am concerned about driving them in parallel. Some strong opinions posted about that. I thought about driving 1 directly. I didn't like how high the belt was but it is an option I guess. I like the fact that my idler runs on the back side of the belt. I also have a tensioner from an AIO printer I would like to use, but it should work either way. 1 direct would require it to be on the front side. The current setup gives me about the max tooth engagement I can get.

    I don't follow this "If you're set on a front back lead 2 screw setup then I'd go with my or NickM axis setup but move your leadscrews.". As shown they r on the sides - where would u move them to?

    I don't know how many times I looked at the pics and the BOM to figure out if that piece was a 20x40 or 20x20. Is the front base also a 20x20? No 20x20 is listed on the BOM.

    I would like to have the spools mount on the frame. I just haven't figured that out yet. I am thinking an angle iron on the back sides. I may have to bolt the front down to the table with all the weight on the back, lol.

    I guess it is time for ver 6 to look at 3 screws. I need to figure this out soon as all my parts at OB will be in stock next week so I can make 1 order.
     
  7. Elmo Clarity

    Elmo Clarity Journeyman
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    I have been following along here for a bit with plans to build one of these. But this latest talk about build platform wobble got me concerned about my plans. I was wanting to make a 12x12x? build area. Not sure how tall I will be able to go with a 500mm lead screw. Is the base design with the two lead screws sturdy enough to support this size of platform or should I look more at what Adam has done and go with 3 lead screws connected with a belt?
     
  8. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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    Personally I wouldn't cantilever more then 6"of Y travel. Carl has proven results with his bot with a 8" Y. Nick ran into issues with a 12" Y cantilever, even with the 60mm Z slider bar.

    @ruggb If your looking to enclose your bot, there are a few places that panels can be mounted on standoffs to allow sliding parts. The main issue with your design, as I see it, is getting repeatable tension all along your total travel height. You are relying in the frame being perfectly square and having zero flex. The top of that particular frame rectangle is mated with a printed plastic part, the bottom can be anchored with a few aluminum parts. With Carl's design you are clamping opposing wheels onto a single extrusion.

    I am planning a cross member at that point, under the sliders on the right and left side of my frame. I have ordered some low profile screws to mount the wheels, hopefully that will allow clearance. I am also planning on only using two, or possibly three, wheels per side as I should have no torsion.
     
  9. Elmo Clarity

    Elmo Clarity Journeyman
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    Sounds like I might be better off sticking with an 8x12 build area then.
     
  10. Carl Feniak

    Carl Feniak Journeyman
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    Sorry, I was referring to Nick's and my lead screws. Your's are arranged how you'd want them.
    The BOM calls for only 20x40 unless the back Z axis uses 20x60. I have two 20x20 pieces in my build because I didn't have any 20x40 left at the time and was impatient, otherwise my build would use only 20x40.

    It is actually quite interesting that everyone interested in this build wants to go with a 12x12 bed. I obviously did not expect this as I thought 10x10 or the 8x12 would be people choices. I like that a few people are willing and working towards a solution for it. I am sure there are more than one way to make a 12x12 bed work as well.
    Adam's three lead screw solution should definitely work and is a great solution for a 12x12 bed or if you don't like driving two parallel motors.
    For me part of the hobby is trying out different ideas. I guess I wouldn't of bothered to design a printer otherwise. I assure you it wasn't a one step process! :)
     
  11. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    I can appreciate the multi-step process for sure. But I believe in using experience - just so happens I really like ur design so I am using ur experience and trying to minimize the total footprint while getting 12x12 (or close to it). I have no idea why I need that but the cost differential is minimal. Just trying to minimize buying parts I can't use, or buying more after the fact. My current issue trying to implement 3 screws with 1 direct drive and pulley drives is getting a belt pulley and a motor-2-screw coupling onto the motor shaft and keeping the belt low. I have about 8mm left on the shaft with the pulley in place. I don't know if that will be enough for a coupling. I may have to keep what I have and/or just add another screw. I think I will model that. Ver 7 coming up.
    It is a testament to ur design that this discussion is so active. Ur help and opinions are much appreciated.
     
  12. NickM

    NickM New
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    Moving the back build plate mounts onto the Z bar, wouldn't move a lot or weight, where they are no is reasonably close to the Z bar anyway, so most of the weight is expressed in sheer pressure. The ones at the front are give more of a twist force on the Z bar.

    A counter weight is a good idea, but it would increase the weight the Z motors have to list, also I want to avoid building a teeter totter.

    I had a good look at what was happening with it today, and it seems the flex isn't coming from where the build plate supports mount onto the Z bar, these are rock solid. All the flex is coming from the wheels, bolts holding the wheels and the plastic holding the wheels to the Z bar.

    I was able to reduce the flex a bit by using a clamp to compress the wheels into the rails before tightening the bolts, it seems the rest is in the plastic and twisting in the bolts. It isn't much flex, but a small amount on the Z bar equate to a big amount at the front of the build plate.
     
  13. NickM

    NickM New
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    No idea why it doesn't bounce back to the same spot, I guess it only takes a small difference on the Z bar's wheel to make a big difference on the front of the build plate.
     
  14. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    Never thought about the possible flexing of the legs. I guess I could add a strap across the middle on the outside. Or possibly rotate the wheels 90° so they r pushing on the 40mm width. Then again how much is a 20x40x500mm rail going to flex on the amt of pressure that can be applied to those wheels??? It seems like the amount of force needed would destroy the plastic or the wheels or both. I am thinking of using this to give me some adjustment.
     

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  15. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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    I didn't mean the extrusion would flex. With your configuration, the wheels on the inside only of the legs, the force will be applied outward to maintain tension with the wheels. The frame section that you have chosen is essentially only a U shape, and not a rectangle. This is discounting the connection made by printed plastic parts, the idlers and motor mounts. As your Z platform rises to the top of the machine the potential for the rectangle to become a trapezoid. If I recall your Z height was around 500mm, which is close to mine, I was surprised at how much flexing I am getting. I will try to grab a video of the deflection. front.PNG

    the red arrow is the spreading force on the frame. The green line is the planned location for a crossmember on my bot, 20x20, hopefully using low profile screws will allow clearance for the Z wheels. If your design hinges on the inboard wheels only, you may want to consider using only 4 wheels. Keeping the wheels inline with the build plate plane, will be a little more forgiving to being slightly out of sync.
     
  16. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    All the corners r attached by plastic so I don't even have a U. More like a bunch of I's. What u r talking about is what all boxes do without a cross member unless maybe the corners r welded together. I would secure it with an 2-3" 1/8 piece of masonite. But it needs to be secured with at least 2 screws on each side. The farther apart the screws r the better the support. Basically u r forming an X across the sides. U will need to do it on at least 2 adjacent sides because it can move in both X and Y directions. U could make the piece 500mm wide and call it an enclosure.
    Diagonal wires would work but that may be more difficult to implement than a 2" board - but it may work better also.
    I don't think wheels on both sides of a rail does much to eliminate this issue. They just r not tight enough on the rail and they move.
    I was thinking about that but I believe I just talked myself into it - especially if u r seeing the issue. Now to figure out how to do it.
     
    #286 ruggb, Feb 23, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  17. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    this should make it very ridgid with 1/8"-1/4" hard masonite or ply
     

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  18. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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    I wish i could model like that in sketchup.

    have you decided to go three leadscrews on a belt? If so, should really consider removing the one horizontal set of wheels, and only use 4. with the 8 wheels spread out in your render, if the leadscrews become out of sync you will get some binding in the respective corner, which will lead so some sore of artifact on your print. With that bracing your frame will go nowhere, using 1 inboard wheel per corner should be sufficient to maintain location, and if one screw gets slightly out of sync you will bind much less. Using three leadscrews will completely isolate the build platform in the Z axis, leaving the linear ways to only handle the XY motion.
     
  19. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    I'm a nooby at this - it is my first project - but I am starting to figure SU out. If SU would behave I would like it a lot better.
    I have ordered the belt for the 2 screws so I guess I will set that up first. I just need to cut the 1m screw into 3 pieces for the future upgrade which will cost a little height but I have no idea what I would use 12" for anyway.
    otherwise I have to buy more - well it would only be $20. so maybe I will go for the 500mm extra piece. Trying to only order once. BUT then if I do 2, I need an extra 4 wheels which will pay for the screw, so I guess I have ordered the belt too soon. Sorry, just thinking out loud.

    OK, I started with 16 wheels, then got down to 8, now u say with three screws I only need 4. Interesting. I understand that logic but could u explain this a little more -- "Using three leadscrews will completely isolate the build platform in the Z axis, leaving the linear ways to only handle the XY motion." I'm not following that.

    How would u suggest syncing the lead screws?? I guess the idea is to get the platform square with the legs, assuming the whole thing is sq with itself.
     
    #289 ruggb, Feb 23, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  20. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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    OK, I started with 16 wheels, then got down to 8, now u say with three screws I only need 4. Interesting. .I understand that logic but could u explain this a little more -- "Using three leadscrews will completely isolate the build platform in the Z axis, leaving the linear ways to only handle the XY motion." I'm not following that

    3 lead screws, properly synced will raise and lower perfectly in the Z axis, the purpose of the linear ways would be to keep the platform steady, across the horizontal. with a cantilever setup, the linear ways will keep the build platform constrained in all three axis, as the slides are preventing any motion in the vertical plane( rotation of the HBP), as well as the horizontal. Using multiple planes of wheels( lets say 8, in your design) could be over constrained as now you have two items keeping control of the same direction. The 8 wheels will need the plate to move perfectly vertical, some binding will occur if those 8 wheels get out of vertical, dropping the wheel count in your design down to 4 will be a lttle more forgiving

    How would u suggest syncing the lead screws?? I guess the idea is to get the platform square with the legs, assuming the whole thing is sq with itself.

    In my setup, the leadscrews are on round shafts and the motor has a flat. I can just loosen the set screw for my 36T pulley set the bed correctly and then re-tighten. If you have flats on your leadscrew / pulley interface they you will sync the screws by slipping teeth, this will give you 2mm adjustments.


    Maybe we should take all this 3 screw talk to my thread and not hi-jack Carls
     
    #290 adamcooks, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
  21. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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  22. hax0red

    hax0red New
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    Haven't had time to read the whole thread yet but I've talked myself into building this. Already have most of the components from my Mini Kossel which will be disassembled after the plastic pieces are printed. Problem right now is nothing is in stock!

    I'm also not clear on the Z nut block. The BOM calls for a block:

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/nut-block-for-8mm-metric-acme-lead-screw/

    while the pictures show a round brass type. Is this a revision? Acme block holder stl looks like it could mount the square block style I posted above....

    This is the threaded rod I assume:

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/8mm-metric-acme-lead-screw/

    For stock C-Bot build height should I go for the 250mm or 500mm? Reason I ask is because it says something about actual length being 285mm for the 250mm variant.

    Here are the links to the rest of my shopping list here at openbuilds just for confirmation before I order.

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/v-slot-20mm-x-40mm-linear-rail/ (1000mm x 7)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/delrin-mini-v-wheel-kit/ (x 20)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/aluminum-spacers/ (1/4" x 12)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/tee-nuts-25-pack/ (x 7)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/5mm-8mm-flexible-coupling/ (x 2)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/cast-corner-bracket/ (x 10)

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/90-degree-joining-plate/ (x 8)


    Thanks and awesome design!
     
  23. adamcooks

    adamcooks Well-Known
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    @ruggb inspired me to learn a bit more CAD XY slider bar.jpg

    Puting the bar ends into fusion was a fun experiment. I added a little more plastic in the insticde of the LED groove, render is a not quite finished version, I still have to add the endstop pad. I have yet to model the xy motor mounts and the XY idlers, saved the best for last I guess.
     
  24. Carl Feniak

    Carl Feniak Journeyman
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    I actually sourced my threaded rod from eBay in 300mm lengths, which is why my build hieight is different. This was before OpenBuilds carried lead screws. My pieces came with that round leadscrew nut you see, so that is what I had to work with. Now that OpenBuilds sells these I'd suggest you go with those instead. Someone already designed a part to hold the OpenBuilds Z nut block and I added it to the parts list.

    What do you want to use your printer for? My logic in going with the 8x12 bed and 300mm threaded rods was that my 8x8 bed on my other printer did limit me slightly on the objects I wanted to print, even after orientating them diagonally. It was always a long object that was an issue for me and not a large square or circle, hence my choice of an 8x12 over a 10x10. A 12x12 would be great, but I don't really print objects that large. Plus, I use a 0.4mm nozzle and printing things that size would take forever. I have used the full height of my OB1.4 only once so I am happy with the height. If you do a lot of vase printing then you might want higher. A shorter 250mm lead screw would still cover 99% of my prints, but I'd still go with 300mm. If you have a lot of tall prints in mind then consider increasing it to 400 or even 500mm.

    A few builders have gone a lot larger and taller than mine and are finding they need to beef up the corner brackets. For dimensions similar to mine I think you are good with your part selection.
     
  25. hax0red

    hax0red New
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    Thanks Carl. I plan to start with the stock setup since it's a massive step up over mine but may end up rebuilding it to print 25-40" in size for car parts ect but for now I'm just looking to get it built and figure out how well it will print. I could probably get away with 250-285mm on the Z height so as long as I can source the rest of the parts I'll be good.

    To start I might try printing most of the parts out of stock at openbuilds, plus I like the idea of getting off cheap to start. Did you use 4 plastic plates(2 upper & 2 lower) to mount the two print bed extrusions to the linear Z axis extrusion? Just wondering if I can cheap out here for now too.

    Love how cheap this thing is gonna be for such a monster print size! :D
     
  26. hax0red

    hax0red New
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    Forgot to ask if there was a reason you didn't go with the V wheels? I kinda wanna try them over the regular delrin mini wheels as they seem to be more versatile since you can use them with the V slot on the extrusion or with the OpenRail linear rail giving more options for experimenting plus I think they would offer more material for locking in linear movement but I may be missing something commonly known about the design?

    This mounting method seems like it would be solid for the Z axis although not as clean:

    http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server2...ed_images/v-slot-connections.jpg?t=1398725710

    Hate to spend $65 and regret not going with one or the other. Really want igus T linear rails but they would be even more money plus a wait from China...maybe later.
     
  27. Carl Feniak

    Carl Feniak Journeyman
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    I went with the mini Vs on the H-Bot that I built before the Core XY. The idea was to keep the XY bar as light as possible and the mini kept both the wheel weight and the plate size/weight down. I only used the mini's for the Z to reduce the parts ordered. You are right in that the Full size wheels will distribute the force over a larger area at its tangent contact location and be better for the Z axis in that respect. The solid ones would be even better than the grooved to reduce deflection in the derlin iteself.
    It wouldn't be too hard of a modification to make on the Z brackets if you use my design files and 123D.
    Those igus T linear rails look great, but my goal was to only use V-slot as the linear guide of choice.
     
  28. hax0red

    hax0red New
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    I did some reading and it seems like the smaller wheels are considered better under heavier loads than the standard V wheels so I'll go with those to stay as close to stock as possible initially since I'll have enough work on my hands. Never cut any extrusion myself before so I'm gonna also need a miter saw.

    Glad to see you use 123D as it's the cad program I'm most familiar with (only made a few simple parts so far).

    If I order the 250mm linear rods from Openbuilds:

    http://openbuildspartstore.com/8mm-metric-acme-lead-screw/

    With your stock dimensions do you think I will have a problem with the build plate being high enough to reach the extruder(Genuine J-head)? Their specs say 250mm ~ 285mm which I assume means it's actually 285mm so I figure 15mm wouldn't be a show stopper but I wanted to get your opinion or see if anyone else has tried them yet. Sure would be nice if Openbuilds would send you new products to test with your obviously popular designs ;)

    Already got the parts coming from Mcmaster ($62.57 in bolts, nuts and washers!) so that just leaves ordering another Kysan stepper for the second Z threaded rod and 20 F623ZZ bearings which were really hard to find in the US. Hopefully I didn't miss anything crucial. Planning to print the plastic parts in Sainsmart fluorescein green PLA at 0.1 layer height with black extrusion so it should be a good looking rig.
     
    Carl Feniak likes this.
  29. ruggb

    ruggb Well-Known
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    hax0red
    u might want to chk MrMetric for fasteners. Their M5x10 socket screw (as example) is $0.05/100 vs $0.0965/100 and shipping is $6.00 flat rate and free over $75. I don't know what Mc M charges for shipping.
     
    Carl Feniak likes this.
  30. hax0red

    hax0red New
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    Wow wish I knew about these guys before. I just checked and it would be about $26 shipped for everything with shipping...almost 3 times cheaper and the site is much easier to navigate. Going to email Mcmaster and try to cancel. Thanks for the tip.

    I also got a reply from Openbuilds about the 8mm Acme threaded rod. They are indeed 285mm so I'm going with them instead of sourcing from ebay since most sources at a decent price are outside the US. Worst case I'll double up on bed leveling springs and use longer bolts to make up the othert 15mm but I doubt it will be necessary.
     

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