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My C-Beam 3D Printer

Discussion in '3D printers' started by evilc66, Jul 27, 2016.

  1. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I have decided that I'm going to leave the Bulldog extruder and E3D V6 Lite hot end on the Two-Up and keep it operational. As a result, I'm going to try the new(ish) E3D Titan extruder. I like that it's lightweight, and can use a very small NEMA17 motor to keep the weight down even more. The Bulldog has been extremely reliable, but being all aluminum, it is a bit of a lump. With this direct drive setup being so light, the idea of a dual extruder setup is becoming very appealing.

    Extruder, hot end (E3D v6 @24v), stepper and mount will be ordered this weekend.
     
  2. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I tried a dual extruder on a FF clone and it simply isn't worth the trouble but YMMV.
     
  3. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I am weighing my options

    dimension: 250*250mm
    voltage: 110V
    Power: 400W

    Now that would go through a SSR and I would still need a PSU for the rest OR I could get a 33A 24V PSU and SSR then use the PSU for both the 400W 24v heating pad as well as the electronics since these power supplies have three out (probably just one rail though). Wiring is no problem as I already use 14ga wire.
     
  4. jamie66

    jamie66 New
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    I'm just starting out on 3d printing. I like your build very much.
    I may have missed it but what are your frame dimensions?

    I would like to recommend using SSR for all cartridge heaters and heating pads. when they short out they can cause a serious current spike. (imho)
     
  5. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    The way I see it, you get a slight efficiency gain using the 110v AC heater as you don't waste energy converting it to DC first. Also, you now don't need nearly as large of a power supply, saving money and reducing heat in the electronics.
     
  6. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    All extrusions are standard off the shelf 500mm lengths. I designed it so that you could essentially order everything you need and bolt it all together. The only custom fabrication will be in the heat bed platform and the extruder/hot end mount.
     
  7. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I agree but the down side is the live circuitry where anyone, or thing, might come in contact with it.

    If 24V shorts I get a few sparks but if 117Vac shorts you better hope the breaker trips.
     
  8. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Then fuse it. You should do that anyway with high current DC too. As well as covering all exposed connections and conductors. That's just general safety, regardless of the voltage. Grounding the build plate when working with AC will also add another layer of safety.

    As someone who works with 700v DC battery packs daily, I don't see either approach being a safety risk, provided the proper precautions are taken. 24v DC can kill you just as easily if it can find a route to ground/earth (yes, I know that higher voltage will break the skin isolation barrier more easily than 24v DC). Remember, it's the current that will do you in, not the voltage.

    If something were to short with your 24v setup, it would be more than just sparks if that 33A power supply were to be allowed to deliver all 33A.

    I know for some people that working with AC just instills the fear of God in them, but DC is fine to work with. Really, both are just as safe or as dangerous as you make them, but if you aren't comfortable with AC, then the choice is easy.
     
    Paul Stoller likes this.
  9. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I know all of that already and my grounding is what caused me to get a spark that took out my old ramps. I replaced the fets but it was deeper so I chunked it. I have a 10amp blade fuse between the 350watt PSU and the RAMPs and the 10A fuse is because the ramps can't really handle much more than that and not because of the PSU which is slightly over 14.5 amps. I wish I could have found a 12A fuse but no dice whereas my old scheme was a circuit breaker but it was rated for 10A and would get so hot it burned me but never tripped. I chunked that after the old board sparked and broke (if it didn't trip then something was wrong with it for sure).

    Afrotechmods on Youtube had a whole thing about this "It's not the volts that kills you, it's the amps" five years ago (many others have done vids since) and while I grew up with that saying it isn't exactly correct.
     
  10. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Well, it is actually. It's the current that clamps your muscles and puts your heart into defib. The voltage has be high enough to cross the isolation barrier we call skin. Sure, there is a little difference in how much voltage it takes to penetrate the skin between AC and DC, but so many other elements can affect that (like sweaty skin, cuts on the skin, abrasions, etc...), it becomes a moving target. Static electricity is low current (nano/pico-amps), but the voltage is high. Still breaks the skin barrier, but it's not enough current to cause any problems.

    Anyway, we are moving WAY off target here :) Use what you feel is safe to you. That's really the most important thing. Just make sure to take the proper safety precautions, be it with AC or DC.
     
    Paul Stoller likes this.
  11. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    As the video said it is about 8 amps and rapidly dissipates in under a microsecond so we feel it but it disappears so fast it doesn't kill us (the static discharge).

    Btw, I am probably going to go with the AC. 250x250 400 watt 117 vac is only 15 plus shipping so around 35 dollars. Is 400 watts enough for a 250x250 heating a 6.35mm 300x300 tooling plate?
     
  12. jamie66

    jamie66 New
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    Could you share a link to that heating pad?
    That sounds like a pretty good price. Thanks
     
  13. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    Round Silicone Heater Bed 300mm 3M Adhesive 12v 270w-in Electric Heating Pads from Home & Garden on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

    250x250 117V USA standard 400 watt. What is the price for that one.
    Thank you.
    Sivia Liang 2016-08-22 00:13 USD 15

    Basically you ask them how much and the specs you are looking for then they make it. I have heard nothing but good things about these folks over the last two years but is 400 watts enough as I don't really know using the 1/4 in 300x300 tooling plate.
     
  14. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    400W should be more than enough to heat a bed that size to temperatures higher than you would ever need. Plus, with the large aluminum bed, it will be very stable thermally (lots of thermal mass). The only thing you may want to do once the printer is running is set up a dwell time after the heater gets up to temperature. This is assuming you are going to use the thermistor that is mounted to the back of the heater mat. If you don't add the dwell time, the edges of the plate will be cooler than the middle. Adding this dwell time will allow the entire aluminum plate to equalize in temperature. If you want to put the thermistor on the aluminum bed itself (top side towards the edges), then the dwell time isn't as critical, as the thermistor will be measuring the temperature on the coolest spot on the plate (where the heater isn't).
     
  15. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I was thinking of doing that with another thermistor but how would I add this dwell time?

    Thomas Sanladerer on youtube added another thermistor on his bed because the one that comes with it is very inaccurate.
     
  16. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I'm looking into that myself. I'll let you know when I find out. I'm still new to G-Code, but I don't think it's that hard to implement.
     
  17. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    It would seem that there is a delay function in G-Code.

    G4 PXXX

    or

    G4 SXXX

    Where PXXX is the length of the delay in milliseconds, and SXXX is the length of the delay in seconds. According to the Reprap wiki, only Marlin and Smoothieware supports the SXXX parameter. Add the delay to the top of the G-Code either manually, or using a startup script.
     
  18. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    Perfect and I would add that right after the M190 and before anything else. I figure 1m should be long enough to stabilize the temp across the bed.
     
  19. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    It might take some experimenting with a thermometer, but a minute should get you pretty close. When I get mine running I'll get my thermal camera on it to see the progression of the heat through the plate.
     
  20. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Smoothieboard 5x ordered. That should be the last of the parts needed to get this up and running.
     
  21. Argentum Fox

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    I love your build I was in the middle of putting something like this together and in my research I came across this site and have just registered.
    I have a few questions.
    1 Can I get a parts list from you?
    2 Will you be printing directly on the aluminum plate or will a glass sheet be going on top?
    3 You talked about a 1:2 belt drive gearing for the x and y but I can't see that in your pictures are you still going ahead with that?
    4 Are you going to run 2 Nema 23 motors for the z axis from the same driver on the smoothieboard?
    5 Will cutting into the heat mat not cut through the element?
    Sorry to bombard you, but the is my first build and I need as much info as possible.
     
  22. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Many of the questions you have have been answered already, but I'll go through them one by one anyway.

    1. The parts list isn't really all that complicated, as I'm using all standard cut length extrusions and actuators from the OpenBuilds store. There aren't any hidden parts, so you can easily determine the parts from the pictures. I'll create a more detailed parts list once I have the build complete. The short version is as follows (all parts from Openbuilds unless otherwise noted):
    • 4x 500mm C-Beam Linear Actuators w/NEMA 23 motors
    • 2x 500mm 20x80 V-Slot
    • 3x 500mm 20x60 V-Slot
    • 2x 90 degree corner brackets
    • 2x "T" brackets (Misumi part)
    • 2x 120mm 45 degree brace extrusions (Misumi part)
    • 16x cast corner brackets
    • A pile of M5 screws and t-nuts
    • Various spacers for build plate, Y-axis mount, etc...
    • 1x 12"x12"x1/4" cast aluminum tool plate (eBay)
    • material for Y-axis mount (I used carbon fiber that I had laying around, but dealer's choice)
    • 300mmx300mm 750W 120v AC heater mat (with SSR) (Amazon)
    • 12"x12" PEI sheet (Amazon)
    • E3D Titan extruder (Filastruder, but there are other options)
    • E3D v6 hot end (24v) (Filastruder, but there are other options)
    • Smoothieboard x5 (Uberclock)
    2. Final print surface will be a 1mm thick sheet of PEI. I've had great luck with it on my other printer. I had tried bare glass, painters tape, and kapton tape before (worked fine for PLA), but couldn't reliably get ABS to stick to anything but PEI.

    3. As stated in the original build description, I'm trying where possible to keep this to a bolt on build. Meaning that most of the parts will be something that you can buy from one site or another without having to modify anything (cutting, machining, printing, etc...). Openbuilds posted a 2:1 belt reduction kit a while back but has since pulled it to make some updates. Hopefully they took my advice and made it so that the mounting position was variable, and that they would offer alternate pulley options to be able to do 2:1, 1:1, or 1:2 depending on what pulleys were used. @Mark Carew was nice enough to send me a few of the original kits, but they still don't have the alternate mounting positions, or the option for different ratios. Hopefully all these things will be taken care of soon and they come out with a very versatile kit. In the meantime, I'm just running the lead screw directly.

    4. Yes. I don't see there being much of an issue at this point running both Z motors from the same driver seeing as they never experience long or rapid movements. If it becomes a problem, it won't be an issue to run an external driver slaved from the Z-axis control pins to run the second motor.

    5. Yes it will, and was something that I addressed a few posts up. I cut the heating element and re-routed the wire around the standoff positions. This isn't something that I would recommend to most people to do, but it is possible with a little careful work. For most people looking to do a 12"x12" build platform, I would recommend using a 250mm or 200mm heating mat so that it clears any mounting points. You will just have to make sure that you allow some time for the build plate to equalize in temperature before printing.

    Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. This build is coming along well and should be operational soon. I did some work on the extruder assembly over the weekend since I got the Titan extruder and the v6 hot end on Friday. I'll have some pictures posted tonight or tomorrow morning.
     
  23. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    I wish I could find something as slick as glass and something that doesn't require sticky tape like a PEI sheet does. I had a British person say they were going to send me some Printbite to test but they never did but from the videos I have seen that stuff is perfect but for how long I don't know.
     
  24. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    It sounds a lot like PEI (at least from the ease of use and the durability), but some pictures I have seen of it make it look micro textured (that's probably the secret sauce). I can definitely tell you that PEI is tough as nails. I've buried the nozzle of my Two-Up into it a number of times (no limit switches) and hasn't left a mark.
     
  25. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    Well, there are a few reports I have read that over time the sticky gives up and you get bubbles underneath and another reason I hate sticky. The Printbite I thought had those micro textures but the users say no and with the glass shine they are getting on the bottom of the first layer says, at least to me, it isn't textured.

    I found a source of 300mmX300mm Boro but is it really boro? So many things from China claim to be what they aren't and finding Boro of that size at a reasonable cost from a reputable dealer is nigh on impossible.
     
  26. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Sticky as in, the tackyness of the build surface, or the adhesive that holds it down gives up after a while?
     
  27. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    The adhesive. It sucks when you have to remove it or if you fudge it up when trying to apply it. I am just no fan of double sided tape.
     
  28. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    I used 3M 468MP adhesive, which seems to be the go to for many different build materials. I haven't had any issues with it letting go on my Two-Up yet (knock on wood), and will be using it for this build. I saw on a few reviews that they recommended carpet tape to stick it down. I'm sure that may be an issue, as it's not really intended as a high temp adhesive (3M 468MP can run for weeks at 150C).
     
  29. DarkAlchemist

    DarkAlchemist Well-Known
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    Carpet tape? LOL. No, this was the 3M stuff and when it bubbled the PEI would pop up on them so was not dead flat anymore.

    It seems Printbite is now using tape. :( I bet that is just a thicker piece of PEI.

    edit: PrintBite PrintBite 300x300mm....£21.00 just not sure what shipping would cost and if you notice they come in a lot of sizes and is 0.8mm thick. It sure sounds like PEI to me only the tape is already on it for you BUT is not 3M so that is a negative.

    PEI sheet equiv to a Printbite - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013HKZTA/ref=biss_dp_t_asn Notice the normally ships by? Usually ships within 1 to 2 months.
     
    #59 DarkAlchemist, Aug 29, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
  30. evilc66

    evilc66 Journeyman
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    Oh! I thought you were talking about the Printbite lifting from the adhesive. I haven't seen any issues on my end. I also don't hang out on any 3D printer forums (other than this one), so I haven't seen word about the PEI not holding. I wonder if the people that are having issues with this are using borosilicate glass, where people who aren't are using other materials (regular float glass, aluminum, etc...). The ease of release on materials like this is generally due to the material shrinking when it cools. Borosilicate is very dimensionally stable through the temperature ranges we use, so I wonder if it's shearing after repeated thermal cycling (again, I'm just speculating as I haven't read into this). I use regular float/picture glass and it does expand and contract as it heats and cools. PEI and float glass may have similar rates of thermal expansion which would limit the shearing force on the adhesive. Just spitballing here.

    Now, on Mutley3D's site, they state their sheet comes with adhesive already mounted. Are people not using the adhesive and just clipping it down the print bed like you would glass to a pcb style heater? If that's the case and it works, I don't see why you couldn't use PEI in the same way (provided you could keep it flat).
     

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